First time poster here. I am currently playing bass in a progressive rock band with a long time friend (guitar) and a drummer. We've been rehearsing without a singer for over six months doing the instrumental parts. We've auditioned a few singers, had one stick around for about six weeks and recently (three rehearsals) found a new singer from a CL add I placed locally. The guitarist in the interim of all of this has started a second project doing the same genre of music. All of the music we and the second project do are not mainstream rock radio tunes. I personally hadn't heard much of it before starting to practice it at home and rehearse it together. My question is: the second project the guitarist has started is doing roughly eight to ten of the same tunes we've been rehearsing for over six months. The guitarist originally said we want to be different from others in the area in our tune selection (he has chosen all the tunes) and do the tunes at a higher level than other bands in the area are doing their music at. I am for some reason, not happy to be sharing my set list with the second project as that defeats the whole being unique in our song choices and also feel the guitarist is being lazy by reusing our tunes in his second project. I am wondering if I am overreacting and what all of your experience has been with this type of scenario if you've been involved in the same situation. This has certainly changed my interest level in this project knowing another band lead by our guitarist is doing the same tunes. They currently have twenty tunes in their set list. Thanks for any input on this subject.
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Two bands, same tunes
- Thread starter Hammer01
- Start date
The guy down the street said he liked my shoes and bought a pair just like them. What should I do?
Both bands are going to have to work very hard to find their audience with that type of material.
Ric5
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- Jan 29, 2008
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- I like 5, 8, 10, and 12 string basses
I would go crazy playing without a singer ... For me the whole song keys off of the vocals ... without the vocals I am lost ...
I have been in that same situation recently. I formed a band 4 years ago and we played a lot of tunes that were jazz, but played in a smooth way (standards even, some of them). We also got a lot of custom tunes, I call them, which are unique songs by artists no one knows about, but which are great songs. We got popular enough to be busier than we wanted to be.
Then one of the members of the group left the band (guitarist), and formed another group. They are playing a lot of the same tunes from our set list, and that member also convinced a key member of the band I started to join him (sax player). In essence, they are a duplicate of the group I started a few years ago in probably 75% of the repertoire. .
Unlike the others here, this bugged me -- at first. Then I realized something akin to what Mellowman said above, except a bit different.
a) Whether the other band will take a piece of your uniqueness really depends on whether they have a gig booker/sales guy in the band, or a booking agent. No gigs, no notoriety, no uniqueness. I have confidence this other band that the sax and guitar player are in will have a gig once every six months, or maybe a bit more -- if they are lucky.
In business, the easy part is coming up with the product. It's getting the product to market and selling it that takes the real talent. And if you're playing bars, or even recording a CD, you've got to be able to sell it. So, the success of each band depends on the salesmanship, not on the uniqueness of the repertoire. So, provided this other group isn't full of sales and promotion guys, your repertoire will be hidden from the world. if your existing band (the one you are in) has no sales people in it but the guitarist, then you run the risk of not being unique.
b) I also realized that this "parallel" band the ex-member of my group started already knows a ton of our repertoire. They played it at a gig they had recently (the ONLY venue this guitarist has in his portfolio). The ex-guitarist that started this other group has had them rehearsing, perfecting and playing the songs on our own repertoire. Since musicians tend not to be loyal to any one band member (usually), the ex-guitarist, in duplicating our repertoire is grooming substitute musicians for us. That will save me time as a band leader when I need a sub.
c) After I got over the shock of our sax player joining this other group, I suggested we even keep the custom repertoire the same so it's less work for him. (The sax player tends to control the set list and creates most of the unique charts). So, this sax player will come to my band's rehearsals with charts already made out from his other band, and will have the endings and intros completed. Our rehearsal should go faster.
So, I'm not concerned about having a clone of my group out there -- the only time I'll be worried is when I stop finding gigs to book for MY group.
Then one of the members of the group left the band (guitarist), and formed another group. They are playing a lot of the same tunes from our set list, and that member also convinced a key member of the band I started to join him (sax player). In essence, they are a duplicate of the group I started a few years ago in probably 75% of the repertoire. .
Unlike the others here, this bugged me -- at first. Then I realized something akin to what Mellowman said above, except a bit different.
a) Whether the other band will take a piece of your uniqueness really depends on whether they have a gig booker/sales guy in the band, or a booking agent. No gigs, no notoriety, no uniqueness. I have confidence this other band that the sax and guitar player are in will have a gig once every six months, or maybe a bit more -- if they are lucky.
In business, the easy part is coming up with the product. It's getting the product to market and selling it that takes the real talent. And if you're playing bars, or even recording a CD, you've got to be able to sell it. So, the success of each band depends on the salesmanship, not on the uniqueness of the repertoire. So, provided this other group isn't full of sales and promotion guys, your repertoire will be hidden from the world. if your existing band (the one you are in) has no sales people in it but the guitarist, then you run the risk of not being unique.
b) I also realized that this "parallel" band the ex-member of my group started already knows a ton of our repertoire. They played it at a gig they had recently (the ONLY venue this guitarist has in his portfolio). The ex-guitarist that started this other group has had them rehearsing, perfecting and playing the songs on our own repertoire. Since musicians tend not to be loyal to any one band member (usually), the ex-guitarist, in duplicating our repertoire is grooming substitute musicians for us. That will save me time as a band leader when I need a sub.
c) After I got over the shock of our sax player joining this other group, I suggested we even keep the custom repertoire the same so it's less work for him. (The sax player tends to control the set list and creates most of the unique charts). So, this sax player will come to my band's rehearsals with charts already made out from his other band, and will have the endings and intros completed. Our rehearsal should go faster.
So, I'm not concerned about having a clone of my group out there -- the only time I'll be worried is when I stop finding gigs to book for MY group.
Over the years, if I invested the time to learn cover songs in one band, I certainly take that knowledge with me when I leave and may play the same song(s) in another band. No biggie. That is how it works. If they are cover songs written by others, you have no claim to them. You can't own a set list.
Thanks bwardmusic for your reply. A few of the other replies seem to have missed the point that the guitarist is STILL playing with me in the original project that is still going while taking some of the same music and using it in his second "newly formed" project. The songs are not being done by any other musicians publicly in our area (gigs). Not sure what Vintage P was digressing about. But, I'm sure a lot of us could tell you exactly where to put the sneaker you are referring to. The idea of our project was to do tunes that noone else is doing in our area as they are very technical to play correctly as well being sung correctly. That was "our" niche in the local music scene. After six plus months of rehearsing the music and recently finding a singer he (guitarist) has also started a second project using eight to ten of our (unique) songs in their current twenty song set list. This is what I'm concerned/upset/whatever about, that we will no longer have "our niche" of tunes that "noone" else in our area is doing. Hopefully everyone understands my question now.............
I do see the issue here. Guitarist is essentially competing with himself and making what your band does with him not as unique. Weird decision on his part if he is actually starting a new project EXACTLY like the one he is currently in. The answer is you need to talk to him, especially if his band will be competing with yours for gigs. Try to understand why he even started a new project...it's possible he is dissatisfied with yours. Or you could just let it roll off your back..if these songs are covers they are fair game for any band to play.
Me personally, would probably let it roll off my back. As long as my group is doing well i could care less about what other bands are doing, even if we share members. Now if his other band starts taking off and yours is left in the dust, might be time to re-evaluate things.
Me personally, would probably let it roll off my back. As long as my group is doing well i could care less about what other bands are doing, even if we share members. Now if his other band starts taking off and yours is left in the dust, might be time to re-evaluate things.
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Go ahead with your band, but change the format and ditch most of the deep cuts.
Two bands playing obscure tunes will most likely be two bands too many. Play a little more mainstream material and get the lion's share of jobs. Let the other band take what few gigs are left.
Good luck!
Two bands playing obscure tunes will most likely be two bands too many. Play a little more mainstream material and get the lion's share of jobs. Let the other band take what few gigs are left.
Good luck!
I have to confess, I'm a bit confused about why this guitarist you mention has two bands with common repertoire. The only time I've done that is if I have a quartet, and need to scale back to a trio for pricing reasons Or maybe I have a trio, and want to augment it to a quartest for sonic reasons. Is that what he is doing? Or do you think he's gradually trying out some other cats to see if the musicianship is better, and then ditch the one that he doesn't want? If he's got the same number of cats in each band, I'm not sure what purpose this servcs.
Could he be using the common repertoire just as way to get band #2 off the ground with a few hours of music? What's his motive for this second band?
As far as the tunes themselves go, no cover band can "own" a setlist, and there's no use fussing over another band playing the same tunes you are. I can see that it's kind of uncomfortable, since your whole concept was to play stuff no one else would. Still, the fact is that a) they're covers and anyone who wants can cover them, and b) there is not a venue in the world that I know of that is going to be eager to hire EITHER band on account of their setlists of obscure prog tunes. They will hire you if you draw crowds that drink alcohol.
What I would be wondering about, though, is the guitarist's long-term plans. If he's already playing the tunes in one band, I don't see why he'd feel the need to go play the same tunes in another, when it's obviously not an economic decision to play these tunes at all. Is he unhappy with how things are going in the group with you?
What I would be wondering about, though, is the guitarist's long-term plans. If he's already playing the tunes in one band, I don't see why he'd feel the need to go play the same tunes in another, when it's obviously not an economic decision to play these tunes at all. Is he unhappy with how things are going in the group with you?
buldog5151bass
Kibble, milkbones, and P Basses. And redheads.
Yes, I don't see the reason for the second band, which sounds like a clone. How is a second band, with the same members, playing the same obscure tunes, going to find places to play?
Thanks for ALL your input on this. I've approached him via a four way email so "our" whole band singer/guitar/drums/bass can discuss. So far, only drummer and I have replied and guitarist has seen the post, but chooses not to respond. I've been telling guitarist (bandleader) that there's not much of a market for the tunes we're busting our a**es learning, but he's got this "I'm a professional" attitude going on. I really enjoy the tunes as they're quite challenging, but MY objective at this point in life is to gig out in front of a crowd which I'm not convinced after wasting 14+ months learning these tunes is going to happen. Adding the fact that he is (I counted this AM) doing twelve out of twenty two songs on his second projects (different players) set list, all of this is really pissing me off as there's no other way to put it. Both the drummer and I agree that he is being lazy by just handing over most of our set list to his second project. I enjoy playing the tunes still and plan on sticking with it. We are really enjoying out new singer and hope this band atleast starts out warming up (one set) for other local bands and we'll see where it goes from there. Biggest gripe I have is guitar and I when we decided to try to do this said we're going to be a progressive rock band doing hard to play tunes that no one else is even attempting learning them to a "T" and now, that seems in mind to have all changed with the sharing of tunes with his other project.
14+ months learning tunes and haven't gigged yet? Move on, young squire.
Who is the band's impressario? (The guy who books the gigs). Is it you, or is it this guy who is doubling the repertoire in the second band?
Also, unless you really enjoy rehearsing and recording, I think you belong to a rehearsal band. In my experience as a BL, after 3-6 months, a frienship-based (not contractor's) band starts drilling into the BL to book gigs. If you guys have been rehearsing for 14 months then I think it's time to test the market.
Do you have a recording of your songs? Do you have a lot of people you could invite to come and see you? Unless you enjoy playing the songs, I think you need see if this guy is serious about booking you into places, or you and the other guys have the commitment and sales orientation to do so. Otherwise, I'd see about getting a small recorder, recording the songs for memory's sake, and then move on to a different group.
Also, unless you really enjoy rehearsing and recording, I think you belong to a rehearsal band. In my experience as a BL, after 3-6 months, a frienship-based (not contractor's) band starts drilling into the BL to book gigs. If you guys have been rehearsing for 14 months then I think it's time to test the market.
Do you have a recording of your songs? Do you have a lot of people you could invite to come and see you? Unless you enjoy playing the songs, I think you need see if this guy is serious about booking you into places, or you and the other guys have the commitment and sales orientation to do so. Otherwise, I'd see about getting a small recorder, recording the songs for memory's sake, and then move on to a different group.
Guitarist and I have technically been at it for 14 months. Along came a drummer (friend of guitarist whom I know) after several drummers either came by to pickup a memory stick with the tunes or check out the set list before deciding it was too hard for them. Drummer came on board about 8 months ago. Then, we went thru the same flakey scenario with singers. They would show, get the music on a memory stick, then either show up and leave quickly after trying one or two of the songs or we had one stay for 4 months once. He typed up notes on everyones digitally recorded (during rehearsal) performance so you knew exactly what you were doing wrong (in his opinion). He finally said call me when you learn the songs better. He was a good singer if we were doing mainstream bar band rock n roll. Did not have the pitch for some of the songs and blamed it on others. He refused to do about 4 or 5 of the songs on the set list as he knew he couldn't do them which was fine with us, but then he started flaking out blaming everyone else (we do have our flaws) for when a song did not get better. Was a blessing when he bailed. We are currently 3 rehearsals into a new (female) singer who is very into the music and trying very hard to learn. So far she has tackled everything so we'll see how it goes. I have reached the point where I'm ready to gig or leave. I am giving it time to see if the new singer gels and can do it. The guitarist and drummer know the local music scene and bar owners so they would be doing the booking for gigs. Guitarist still has not replied to my band email regarding his second project doing 12 of the same songs our group (we were the first project) is doing. His silence speaks volumes. I really just want to gig with a band that gets along. I don't think that's too unreasonable. ROCK ON!!!
Good luck. I hope your singer works out! Why don't you take a recording of the songs the singer is learning (you only need snippets of 3 songs, mixed together, or faded out, one after the other) and take it one of the bar owners and see what s/he says about its appropriateness? This could save you a ton of hassle and rehearsing. Or find a new place yourself that isn't on your guitar and drummer's list, and find out what s/he says about it.
Also, if singers are this hard to find, it means that your band will likely only last as long as the singer stays with the group. If the singer quits, you have to start over again.
It's better to play more mainstream material, I think. For the sake of being able to plug and play singers and other musicians.
Also, if singers are this hard to find, it means that your band will likely only last as long as the singer stays with the group. If the singer quits, you have to start over again.
It's better to play more mainstream material, I think. For the sake of being able to plug and play singers and other musicians.
I'm pretty much at the point where if "this" version of the band doesn't get some gigs shortly I'm going to have to bail as it's taking way too much time. I already work 40+ at a well paying job and don't need to do this for any $$$, although I do expect to get paid unless it's a benefit we're playing. I've been in a couple "classic/mainstream" rock projects while doing this that haven't lasted, but found it much easier to learn that genre of music as opposed to some of the progressive (change keys 2 to 3 times a song) music. The guitarist and drummer have both said that several local (gigging) bands have asked them when we're going to be ready so we can get on stage with them so it "sounds" like we have potential to gig as soon as we're up to speed with the new singer. Guitarist doesn't work. Has $$$ from some I assume family source that he has always lived on as well as rental income from his current residence as he wants to be a "professional musician" for a living. Drummer is recently unemployed with a family. He does sound for some of the local bands for some side $$$ and singer and I work full time with families. I'm first and foremost trying to do this for fun, but the angles the Guitarist is pulling make it troublesome in my mind. I am currently seeking a second project as a backup. Thinking some smooth jazz may be a good course for me to take as my second project and have a Guitarist and Drummer speaking with me currently and we'll see where that one goes.
Hammer01, obviously the guitarist is getting bored with you guys and feels like he's getting nowhere because it's been too difficult to keep a singer and get things going. He's starting over.
I'd be looking at what is making the band you're in so slow in getting anywhere.
Too much indecision?
Someone being pushy and overriding someone else's vote?
Someone's skills aren't up to the level?
Sent from my iPhone 5c locked in my cod piece using the TalkBass mobile app with my 11th finger while scaling the cliffs of Mordor. (stay thirsty, my friends)
I'd be looking at what is making the band you're in so slow in getting anywhere.
Too much indecision?
Someone being pushy and overriding someone else's vote?
Someone's skills aren't up to the level?
Sent from my iPhone 5c locked in my cod piece using the TalkBass mobile app with my 11th finger while scaling the cliffs of Mordor. (stay thirsty, my friends)
