Two piece bridge and string tension

[Ringhammer]

Will the the spacing between the bridge and the tailpiece have any effect on string tension?

Will the angle of the string between the bridge and tailpiece have any effect on string tension?

I have a five string Rickenbacker running a Ric four string set plus a .125 for the B and the B is floppier than I feel it should be. I’m going to swap the bridge for a Hipshot D style with .656 spacing and I want to set the bridge/tailpiece relationship to be able to get some tension on a lighter set of strings, if that’s possible.

I want to be able to use a light five string set .120 - .040 but have the tension be somewhat stiffer (Esp on the B) than the .045, .055, .075, .105, .125 that’s on there now.

 

[dwizum]

The actual tension at a given pitch is determined by the string mass and scale length, and that's it. You could have a mile of string past the witness point at the bridge and the speaking portion of the string would be at the same tension, assuming it was tuned the same.

You can't change scale length or pitch (assuming you want the B string to be at B). You can change the string itself though. I find that low B's are often poorly matched to the rest of a given string set and I don't think it's a big deal to buy that string individually if the one that comes with a given brand/model of strings isn't to your liking. Maybe you'd be best off with a .040-.100 4 string set, and then purchase an individual B string that you find suitable for your instrument.

Changing bridges or bridge configuration can result in a perceived difference in feel or tone but that strikes me as a much more expensive and much less predictable way to proceed versus just slapping on a string you like the feel of and leaving everything else alone.

 

[Ringhammer]

So even the angle (if the tailpiece were significantly lower than the bridge) has no effect on tension?

I’ll still be swapping the bridge on my 4003s/5 simply for aesthetic reasons, I think the stock Schaller style bridge, while a good bridge itself, is rather boring on the Ric.

 

[dwizum]

No effect on tension. Tension is literally in a fixed relationship with mass and pitch. The break angle can have other impacts but a) most bridges are in a pretty narrow range anyways, and b) tension on the speaking length is definitely not one of them!

Can you explain your desire to have lighter gauge strings, yet also wanting them less floppy? That strikes me as about the same thing as saying you wish your car had less horsepower, but it was faster. Seems like the two things you're asking for contradict each other? What are you after - a certain tone/attack, or a certain playability or feel?

Have you tried different compositions or brands of string? Again, especially with B's, there can be a big difference in the feel and tone, tension aside. I have basses where there are a handful of brands/gauges I like for the top 4 strings, but only one brand/gauge of B that feels and sounds right.

 

[T_Bone_TL]

Using denser materials, you can get thinner strings with more tension and a much lighter wallet at the end of the day.

 

[Ringhammer]

I am rather new to five string and I just prefer a certain tension, and I find on my four string basses, I try new strings of the typical gauge I use .045 - .105 and some feel perfect (Blue Steels), and some are so stiff they literally change the relief on the neck (Pyramid). It’s not that I want smaller strings per se, but I do not want to go to a .128 or .130 to get the feel I want. Maybe just finding the perfect .125 is what I need to do.

 

[HaMMerHeD]

Try a stainless steel .125 string. If that doesn't give you what you are after, then what you are after may not exist.

 

[micguy]

Will the the spacing between the bridge and the tailpiece have any effect on string tension?

Will the angle of the string between the bridge and tailpiece have any effect on string tension?

I have a five string Rickenbacker running a Ric four string set plus a .125 for the B and the B is floppier than I feel it should be. I’m going to swap the bridge for a Hipshot D style with .656 spacing and I want to set the bridge/tailpiece relationship to be able to get some tension on a lighter set of strings, if that’s possible.

I want to be able to use a light five string set .120 - .040 but have the tension be somewhat stiffer (Esp on the B) than the .045, .055, .075, .105, .125 that’s on there now.

The tension of a string at a given pitch is determined by the speaking length of the string (distance from nut to bridge) and the linear mass density of the string. Your desire to have more tension with smaller diameter strings makes absolutely no sense - lighter gauge strings will reduce the tension. For more tension, unless you radically change the materials of the string's construction (depleted uranium, anyone?) you need bigger strings. Given that string makers like to use magnetic materials (steel, nickel) which have similar densities, this is a very solid rule for the most part. The one exception is that things like flat woulds (which have less voids in the metal) have a big higher linear mass density, because places where there would e air in a round wound string are metal in a flat wound.

With a Ric, you have a slight disadvantage already, in that the scale length is 33.25 inches - a bit shorter than the typical 34. That reduces string tension. You need to run a slightly higher than normal gauge on your B is you want it to have decent tension.

I run VERY light gauge strings on my 5 strings - 35/50/70/95/130. That's a progressive set - each string, as it gets bigger, has slightly more tension - it's close to balanced, but tilted a bit. My point is, if you like the tension of a 95 E, for a similar tension on your B string, you need a 130 B string. For a 105 E (like you have) you need a 140 B to get similar tension. On your bass, especially being a bit shorter, you will never get tension that matches a 105 E with a 120 B - it just ain't gonna happen. Most sets have B strings that are entirely too small to match the rest of the set. That's the source of floppy B strings - it's a string problem, not a bass problem.

Short answer: You need a bigger B (not a smaller one). 120 just ain't big enough.

 

[Beej]

The B may feel a little floppy compared to what you're used to just due to the scale length being a little shorter. A .128 may be exactly what you need.

 

[bholder]

The actual tension at a given pitch is determined by the string mass and scale length, and that's it. You could have a mile of string past the witness point at the bridge and the speaking portion of the string would be at the same tension, assuming it was tuned the same.

You can't change scale length or pitch (assuming you want the B string to be at B). You can change the string itself though. I find that low B's are often poorly matched to the rest of a given string set and I don't think it's a big deal to buy that string individually if the one that comes with a given brand/model of strings isn't to your liking. Maybe you'd be best off with a .040-.100 4 string set, and then purchase an individual B string that you find suitable for your instrument.

Changing bridges or bridge configuration can result in a perceived difference in feel or tone but that strikes me as a much more expensive and much less predictable way to proceed versus just slapping on a string you like the feel of and leaving everything else alone.

aka "Physics is a Harsh Mistress" hehe.

 

[Arie X]

you could try a balanced set of strings.

 

[dwizum]

I do love the Hipshot D style bridge, it's my favorite of their products and not used often enough IMHO. Show us some pics once it's on! I would just stick with whatever spacing Hipshot recommends in terms of distance between the saddle and the tailpiece.

 

[mikewalker]

Break angle cannot affect tension, but it does affect a property referred to as "compliance". This basically describes the apparent 'stiffness' of the portion of the string closest to the bridge...

 

[mboki]

You are on the right track with 2 piece bridge. I used to fine tweak the feel of strings on Warwick by raising or lowering the tail piece.

On Lakland, I do it on the oposite end via the string tree. I usually tighten it lower on heavier strings side.

The effect is the same as stringing through body vs through bridge. The breaking angle is greater, string is stiffer and rattles less.

Regarding the question about distance between the bridge and tail piece, less distance between the two means the greater breaking angle of the string and stiffer feel (perceived as stronger tension). If you are keen on modifying Ric even more, you may route the body for stringing through body.

 

[dkelley]

an you explain your desire to have lighter gauge strings, yet also wanting them less floppy? That strikes me as about the same thing as saying you wish your car had less horsepower, but it was faster. Seems like the two things you're asking for contradict each other? What are you after - a certain tone/attack, or a certain playability or feel?

Don't forget, sometimes there are other variables that can get your combination in the end.

For your car analogy - it's perfectly doable - make the car way lighter. Like a Lotus - very very fast, low horsepower, super light.

Or, to have thinner strings that are tighter - use must use a longer scale length.

Or, as is most often the case - it isn't the tension that matters so much - it's the stiffness of the string that matters. Hex core strings are stiffer than round core strings, for a common difference that is VERY feelable.

Just my little contribution - I think others have said similar points here.

By the way though, I love your points about the physics behind string tension - you described how it works very well. I'm happy to have that clear, since so often it's hard to get across to people.

 

[Bruce Johnson]

If you want more of the engineering/physics behind this, here's an old thread from 2016 where we went into it in great detail. It's about the related question of whether a reverse headstock adds more "tension" to the B-string:

Does a reverse headstock add tension?

Here's a copy of the main post that I wrote, from a previous thread where the question was about whether adding extra string length between the bridge saddles and the tailpiece on a short scale bass will increase the "tension" on the strings:

Well, yes and no. The actual tension in the string is the same. The tension is determined by the scale length (the distance between the bridge saddle and the nut), the gauge/construction of the string, and the note that it is tuned to. Adding extra length at either end, between the saddle and the anchor point/tailpiece, or between the nut and the tuner, does not change the tension of the string.

However, adding that extra length at either end does change the sound and feel of the string. It's a factor I call the "snap" of the string, which is often confused with the tension. It works like this: When you pull sideways on the string, as you are plucking it, the string is stretching like a long spring. Then you release it, and it snaps back to straight, overshoots it, and goes into the back and forth oscillation.

When you add extra length to the string at either end, you are making that spring longer. So, you have to pull it farther sideways to get the same feel on your fingertip, because the string stretches easier.

For example, suppose you have two basses, same scale length, same string, tuned to the same note. One has the standard short distance between the bridge saddle and the anchor point. The other has an extra 3" of length back to the anchor point. Again, the actual tension in both strings will be the same.

But, if you pull the string sideways with a force of, say, 1 pound on your fingertip, there will be a difference. With the extended string, you have to pull the string a longer distance to the side to reach that 1 pound load. It's because there's more length of string to stretch.

Now, when you release the strings of these two basses, the extended string has a longer distance to travel to get back to center. The physics of it is that they will both accelerate at the same rate, because the tension is the same. The extended string will take longer to reach center, but it crosses over center at higher velocity and goes farther to the other side before rebounding. This is the effect that I call "snap". Increasing the overall length of the string increases the snap, regardless of the scale length.

How does this affect the sound? Increasing the snap mainly changes the attack curve of the note. It increases the pulse at the beginning of the note, which is why I call it snap. Think of the percussive sound of upright basses. They have a huge amount of snap because of the very long overall string length. The increased pulse can be heard through the amp, and also unplugged.

The funny thing about increasing the snap is that players will describe it in opposite ways. Some will say that the tension is higher, because they hear that extra pop on the note. Others will say that the tension is lower, because the string feels softer to their fingertip. But actually, the tension is exactly the same.

It's the same factor in all those long arguments about reverse headstocks, and how increasing the length between the nut and the tuner of the B string will increase the "tension" of the string to improve the sound, etc. It doesn't actually increase the tension, but it increases the snap. Which may make the B string sound more like the other strings.

Etc.
So, a reverse headstock increases the "snap" on the lower strings, the most on the B, while reducing the snap on the upper strings. That may add more balance to the feel and sound across the strings. But, it's not actually increasing the tension.

Note: What I'm calling Snap, others are calling Compliance.

 

[JimmyM]

I am rather new to five string and I just prefer a certain tension, and I find on my four string basses, I try new strings of the typical gauge I use .045 - .105 and some feel perfect (Blue Steels), and some are so stiff they literally change the relief on the neck (Pyramid). It’s not that I want smaller strings per se, but I do not want to go to a .128 or .130 to get the feel I want. Maybe just finding the perfect .125 is what I need to do.

I'd recommend a longer scale than 34", like maybe 36" or maybe one of those fanned fret basses that a lot of folks seem to love but I can't deal with. But as someone who hates big fat strings, I use a 120 B on my one and only 5, which is 34" scale, and I've just learned to deal with it. You do get used to it, especially when you're like me, you refuse to get another 5 and you refuse to get a heavier string. Honestly, I was dealing with it when I had a 130 B, too.

 

[Ringhammer]

I'd recommend a longer scale than 34", like maybe 36" or maybe one of those fanned fret basses that a lot of folks seem to love but I can't deal with. But as someone who hates big fat strings, I use a 120 B on my one and only 5, which is 34" scale, and I've just learned to deal with it. You do get used to it, especially when you're like me, you refuse to get another 5 and you refuse to get a heavier string. Honestly, I was dealing with it when I had a 130 B, too.

I’m not likely to get another 5, but I have so many basses I figured a 5 should be in the stable, plus I can see using it for recording, adding some extra lows behind main tracks. And I figured if I’m gonna have a 5 why not a Ric? However, just like all my Fenders, I will make it mine. I do love the feel of the neck, and maybe the bridge and some string experimentation will get it feeling perfect.

 

[Rôckhewer]

If you want more of the engineering/physics behind this, here's an old thread from 2016 where we went into it in great detail. It's about the related question of whether a reverse headstock adds more "tension" to the B-string:

Does a reverse headstock add tension?

Here's a copy of the main post that I wrote, from a previous thread where the question was about whether adding extra string length between the bridge saddles and the tailpiece on a short scale bass will increase the "tension" on the strings:

Well, yes and no. The actual tension in the string is the same. The tension is determined by the scale length (the distance between the bridge saddle and the nut), the gauge/construction of the string, and the note that it is tuned to. Adding extra length at either end, between the saddle and the anchor point/tailpiece, or between the nut and the tuner, does not change the tension of the string.

However, adding that extra length at either end does change the sound and feel of the string. It's a factor I call the "snap" of the string, which is often confused with the tension. It works like this: When you pull sideways on the string, as you are plucking it, the string is stretching like a long spring. Then you release it, and it snaps back to straight, overshoots it, and goes into the back and forth oscillation.

When you add extra length to the string at either end, you are making that spring longer. So, you have to pull it farther sideways to get the same feel on your fingertip, because the string stretches easier.

For example, suppose you have two basses, same scale length, same string, tuned to the same note. One has the standard short distance between the bridge saddle and the anchor point. The other has an extra 3" of length back to the anchor point. Again, the actual tension in both strings will be the same.

But, if you pull the string sideways with a force of, say, 1 pound on your fingertip, there will be a difference. With the extended string, you have to pull the string a longer distance to the side to reach that 1 pound load. It's because there's more length of string to stretch.

Now, when you release the strings of these two basses, the extended string has a longer distance to travel to get back to center. The physics of it is that they will both accelerate at the same rate, because the tension is the same. The extended string will take longer to reach center, but it crosses over center at higher velocity and goes farther to the other side before rebounding. This is the effect that I call "snap". Increasing the overall length of the string increases the snap, regardless of the scale length.

How does this affect the sound? Increasing the snap mainly changes the attack curve of the note. It increases the pulse at the beginning of the note, which is why I call it snap. Think of the percussive sound of upright basses. They have a huge amount of snap because of the very long overall string length. The increased pulse can be heard through the amp, and also unplugged.

The funny thing about increasing the snap is that players will describe it in opposite ways. Some will say that the tension is higher, because they hear that extra pop on the note. Others will say that the tension is lower, because the string feels softer to their fingertip. But actually, the tension is exactly the same.

It's the same factor in all those long arguments about reverse headstocks, and how increasing the length between the nut and the tuner of the B string will increase the "tension" of the string to improve the sound, etc. It doesn't actually increase the tension, but it increases the snap. Which may make the B string sound more like the other strings.

Etc.
So, a reverse headstock increases the "snap" on the lower strings, the most on the B, while reducing the snap on the upper strings. That may add more balance to the feel and sound across the strings. But, it's not actually increasing the tension.

Note: What I'm calling Snap, others are calling Compliance.

This type of post is why I have noooo problem paying $4 a month... just to hang out here.
Another chapter in the Book of Bruce... a holy scripture of bass building.

 

[bbh]

If you want more of the engineering/physics behind this, here's an old thread from 2016 where we went into it in great detail. It's about the related question of whether a reverse headstock adds more "tension" to the B-string:

Does a reverse headstock add tension?

Here's a copy of the main post that I wrote, from a previous thread where the question was about whether adding extra string length between the bridge saddles and the tailpiece on a short scale bass will increase the "tension" on the strings:
My b is .118 and the set is Labella RX.

Well, yes and no. The actual tension in the string is the same. The tension is determined by the scale length (the distance between the bridge saddle and the nut), the gauge/construction of the string, and the note that it is tuned to. Adding extra length at either end, between the saddle and the anchor point/tailpiece, or between the nut and the tuner, does not change the tension of the string.

However, adding that extra length at either end does change the sound and feel of the string. It's a factor I call the "snap" of the string, which is often confused with the tension. It works like this: When you pull sideways on the string, as you are plucking it, the string is stretching like a long spring. Then you release it, and it snaps back to straight, overshoots it, and goes into the back and forth oscillation.

When you add extra length to the string at either end, you are making that spring longer. So, you have to pull it farther sideways to get the same feel on your fingertip, because the string stretches easier.

For example, suppose you have two basses, same scale length, same string, tuned to the same note. One has the standard short distance between the bridge saddle and the anchor point. The other has an extra 3" of length back to the anchor point. Again, the actual tension in both strings will be the same.

But, if you pull the string sideways with a force of, say, 1 pound on your fingertip, there will be a difference. With the extended string, you have to pull the string a longer distance to the side to reach that 1 pound load. It's because there's more length of string to stretch.

Now, when you release the strings of these two basses, the extended string has a longer distance to travel to get back to center. The physics of it is that they will both accelerate at the same rate, because the tension is the same. The extended string will take longer to reach center, but it crosses over center at higher velocity and goes farther to the other side before rebounding. This is the effect that I call "snap". Increasing the overall length of the string increases the snap, regardless of the scale length.

How does this affect the sound? Increasing the snap mainly changes the attack curve of the note. It increases the pulse at the beginning of the note, which is why I call it snap. Think of the percussive sound of upright basses. They have a huge amount of snap because of the very long overall string length. The increased pulse can be heard through the amp, and also unplugged.

The funny thing about increasing the snap is that players will describe it in opposite ways. Some will say that the tension is higher, because they hear that extra pop on the note. Others will say that the tension is lower, because the string feels softer to their fingertip. But actually, the tension is exactly the same.

It's the same factor in all those long arguments about reverse headstocks, and how increasing the length between the nut and the tuner of the B string will increase the "tension" of the string to improve the sound, etc. It doesn't actually increase the tension, but it increases the snap. Which may make the B string sound more like the other strings.

Etc.
So, a reverse headstock increases the "snap" on the lower strings, the most on the B, while reducing the snap on the upper strings. That may add more balance to the feel and sound across the strings. But, it's not actually increasing the tension.

Note: What I'm calling Snap, others are calling Compliance.

Totally agree. I’ve tried to convey that same thing, rather unsuccessfully. Perhaps me calling it tension was the problem.
I run .118 b on most of my basses, Labella RX. For my basses where the b speaks a bit louder than the rest, this is the solution and it’s not even close to floppy.