Upgrade from Phil Jones Bass sound

[jajabinker]

Dear all

I'm running a strandberg Boden 5 through a PJB BASS VUB PRO with an extension cab. The sound is plenty loud for trio gigs at 240 W and the tone is quite powerful. Its powerfull and quite deep with a lot of midrange to give it presence.

The other day I went to a gig without my amp and ended playing through a Pa speaker 15 inch ev zlx p. And my notes seemed to be clearet and well defined with not much loss in the bottom end. But there punch is gone.

And in comparison the pjb sounds muddy. The sound feels very choked and constricted and sounds more like the amp than the bass itself. And the signal keeps limiting and is frustating because there's no dynamics remaining(confirmed this with other musicians) I also have an MIA 1970s p bass and I have the same issue.

So im looking for a bass amp which is transparent and has the full frequency range and punch. Because I end up playing better jazz because I can hear my notes better.

Any suggestions for an upgrade?

 

[gtirard]

Dear all

I'm running a strandberg Boden 5 through a PJB BASS VUB PRO with an extension cab. The sound is plenty loud for trio gigs at 240 W and the tone is quite powerful. Its powerfull and quite deep with a lot of midrange to give it presence.

The other day I went to a gig without my amp and ended playing through a Pa speaker 15 inch ev zlx p. And my notes seemed to be clearet and well defined with not much loss in the bottom end. But there punch is gone.

And in comparison the pjb sounds muddy. The sound feels very choked and constricted and sounds more like the amp than the bass itself. And the signal keeps limiting and is frustating because there's no dynamics remaining(confirmed this with other musicians) I also have an MIA 1970s p bass and I have the same issue.

So im looking for a bass amp which is transparent and has the full frequency range and punch. Because I end up playing better jazz because I can hear my notes better.

Any suggestions for an upgrade?

I recommend a Quilter Bass Block head and a Barefaced Super Compact cab, because both have a transparent sound, full frequency range, very detailed and articulate, with great low end that stay clear (never muddy or boomy).

 

[WestyBassBob]

Perhaps the problem isn’t the amp but the cabinet. Maybe ditch the extension cab. I’ve never had a chance to hear PJB in the wild so I can’t compare it but MarkBass and Hartke are both known to have a “flat” “transparent” sound.

However the speaker you pair it with has a bigger impact on sound than you might expect. So experiment with a few u til you find what you like.

 

[Aloe]

a bass cub pro is a tiny combo, if you need it loud, it will sound boxy. not sure, which extension cab do you have -- a c2 or a c4, but more speakers definitely helps. to put it in some comparable perspective, four 5" drivers are roughly equal to one good 10", a set-up that's definitely on a small side for gigging.

try a 2x10 cab or combo. jazz? IDK, one of MarkBass 102 combos?

 

[Lammchop93]

Genzler BA12-3 and any of their heads will do the trick. Those bass array cabs are pretty flat and are designed to sound like what comes out of a PA if I remember correctly.

 

[gt96g]

In my experience, the PJ heads leave a bit to be desired. That said I love their cabs. They're quite flat in their response and will generally take on the character of the amp that's running through them.

As others have recommended, I would look at running some different heads through you extension cab and see what kind of results you get.

 

[Artorias]

Dear all

I'm running a strandberg Boden 5 through a PJB BASS VUB PRO with an extension cab. The sound is plenty loud for trio gigs at 240 W and the tone is quite powerful. Its powerfull and quite deep with a lot of midrange to give it presence.

The other day I went to a gig without my amp and ended playing through a Pa speaker 15 inch ev zlx p. And my notes seemed to be clearet and well defined with not much loss in the bottom end. But there punch is gone.

And in comparison the pjb sounds muddy. The sound feels very choked and constricted and sounds more like the amp than the bass itself. And the signal keeps limiting and is frustating because there's no dynamics remaining(confirmed this with other musicians) I also have an MIA 1970s p bass and I have the same issue.

So im looking for a bass amp which is transparent and has the full frequency range and punch. Because I end up playing better jazz because I can hear my notes better.

Any suggestions for an upgrade?

Genzler Magellan. I started using their preamp, freaking amazing!!! No kidding, check out Genzler. You want transparent, punchy, control? Genzler. I’ve never had a better bass tone in my life.

 

[LakeEffect]

I recently switched from a proper “hi fi” cab to a PJB C2. I’ve been pretty shocked how undefined the tone has been with all else being exactly equal. I’d always heard PJB cabs are super transparent and in comparison to some they definitely are, but I haven’t found that to be the case coming from other high fi/transparent gear.

I agree with everyone, maybe you will be happy just changing your amp head alone, that totally may do the trick. But I also wouldn’t be surprised if your tastes may just be changing away from your current setup - cab included. A true flat voice cab would be a good bet as you’ve noted. Also sounds like you may want a tweeter.. I sure missed mine immediately when moving to the PJB and am now about three months out from a Barefaced One10. The One10 actually seems to be the most “voiced” of all the Barefaced cabs, but my hunch is that it’s still flatter than PJB and I’m banking on having a tweeter will make a big difference for what I’m after. Seems like it’ll be well worth the wait.

 

[dune]

For a time, I was convinced that I too wanted transparency/FRFR. I tried PJB and based on that experience (with a BG-450) I think your "choked and constricted" is an apt description. I then played through a QSC 12.2 with an HX Stomp in front of it for about a year. That sounded fine but just didn't feel like a real bass amp to me. I came to the conclusion that maybe transparency/FRFR wasn't in fact what I wanted. I ended up going all Mesa. Transparency, schmansparency.

 

[Adjectives]

Genzler Magellan. I started using their preamp, freaking amazing!!! No kidding, check out Genzler. You want transparent, punchy, control? Genzler. I’ve never had a better bass tone in my life.

So much THIS. Bought My Magellan 800 a few years ago and haven't looked back!(Well, I did buy a cheap Genz-Benz Shuttle 9.0 as a backup). It is my ideal amp paired with my 2, MG212Ts. It gets great low end while playing quietly but can be the loudest thing ever! The presence is incredible. Heard the same about Mesa's 800w class D amps too but can only speak to the Genzler. All that power in like 5lbs and the EQ section is the most versatile I've come across.

I play Country, Nu-Metal, Alternative and classic rock and it's the bee's knees for all thse genres. Best of luck OP!!

 

[Ratterbass_]

This sounds a lot like a cab issue, not an amp issue per se.

The BG120 in my experience is a very honky and nasal sounding cab. Same goes for any PJB cab that uses the very small drivers. I don't like them very much.

The CAB27 (and CAB47 and 67 by extension) on the other hand are my go to recommendation for punchy and clear sounds on a not so big budget. They are pretty much like a PA speaker.

The be all end all solution imho is a Barefaced Big Baby or Big Twin (if you're mad). These are excellent cabinets for clear and punchy bass sound without compromise but they are pricey.

As for standalone amplifier: basically any modern amp head that is rated at 500W rms @4Ω or higher and not made by TC.Electronic. (they have very aggressive limiters in their power amps which they use for sound shaping, so you either like their soft tone or you don't). The sensible choice would be the Harley Benton 800 Block. It's got the same 700W ICEPower module that is used in most class-d amps like Mesa, Darkglass, Ampeg Venture series, Aguilar etc. So you get very good performance for your money. The preamp is neutral and absolutely fine.

 

[Adjectives]

I recently switched from a proper “hi fi” cab to a PJB C2. I’ve been pretty shocked how undefined the tone has been with all else being exactly equal. I’d always heard PJB cabs are super transparent and in comparison to some they definitely are, but I haven’t found that to be the case coming from other high fi/transparent gear.

While I have always been curious about PJB gear, I have way too many "small amps" for that use case. (80's acoustic 136 15', Roland Bass Cube, some old Peavey 12" KB amp etc haha) The gear looks really cool like that red C6(or 8 is it? idk)

 

[LakeEffect]

For a time, I was convinced that I too wanted transparency/FRFR. I tried PJB and based on that experience (with a BG-450) I think your "choked and constricted" is an apt description. I then played through a QSC 12.2 with an HX Stomp in front of it for about a year. That sounded fine but just didn't feel like a real bass amp to me. I came to the conclusion that maybe transparency/FRFR wasn't in fact what I wanted. I ended up going all Mesa. Transparency, schmanparency.

I’m not sure what you played through but I had a bit of that too when I was searching. Thought it’s what I wanted, tried some stuff out, then wasn’t sure. Choked is totally the right word. For me, I had to go high end to get the transparency tone I was after. The Markbasses, through excellent, didn’t cut it. Too sterile.. just kind of “narrow.” I ended up with the Berg CN and NXT stuff with tweeters. And Jule/ Eich stuff out front. Not cheap but it was how I ultimately got the expansiveness and “aliveness” I was after. If I wake up one day and determine my tastes have changed or otherwise abandon the hi fi project I suspect I may end up with Mesa.

Note, I didn’t try the Genz stuff in this end of the spectrum and would expect them to knock it out of the park. Their Neo cab was incredible and I loved the Streamliner I played it through, which had its own mini tube thing going on but totally punched above its weight class. Their gear could be a great next stop.

 

[LakeEffect]

While I have always been curious about PJB gear, I have way too many "small amps" for that use case. (80's acoustic 136 15', Roland Bass Cube, some old Peavey 12" KB amp etc haha) The gear looks really cool like that red C6(or 8 is it? idk)

I was dealing with the opposite. I hadn’t had a small speaker since a 10’’ combo I learned my first scale on 20 years ago. I was a lost puppy while looking at how I could downsize while keep my tone. I feel that if the Barefaced doesn’t work I may be back looking at more traditional/sizable cabs. Based on what I’d read, the PJB seemed to be a good bet but wasn’t it for me. INCREDIBLE gear though. Truly astounding feats of physics and sound damn good for what I’d think are the most common preferences.

 

[shirojiro]

Dear all

I'm running a strandberg Boden 5 through a PJB BASS VUB PRO with an extension cab. The sound is plenty loud for trio gigs at 240 W and the tone is quite powerful. Its powerfull and quite deep with a lot of midrange to give it presence.

The other day I went to a gig without my amp and ended playing through a Pa speaker 15 inch ev zlx p. And my notes seemed to be clearet and well defined with not much loss in the bottom end. But there punch is gone.

And in comparison the pjb sounds muddy. The sound feels very choked and constricted and sounds more like the amp than the bass itself. And the signal keeps limiting and is frustating because there's no dynamics remaining(confirmed this with other musicians) I also have an MIA 1970s p bass and I have the same issue.

So im looking for a bass amp which is transparent and has the full frequency range and punch. Because I end up playing better jazz because I can hear my notes better.

Any suggestions for an upgrade?

Can you change your gain structure to reduce the limiter ?

Also can you change your eq settings to reduce the muddiness?

I found eq pedals in conjunction with a high pass filter cleaned up my sound a lot.

I really like my fdeck hpf (I think it’s v3) and also a Tech21 Qstrip ( which also has a non adjustable hpf).

I have no connection to either manufacturer. I’m just a satisfied customer.

 

[dune]

I’m not sure what you played through but I had a bit of that too when I was searching. Thought it’s what I wanted, tried some stuff out, then wasn’t sure. Choked is totally the right word. For me, I had to go high end to get the transparency tone I was after. The Markbasses, through excellent, didn’t cut it. Too sterile.. just kind of “narrow.” I ended up with the Berg CN and NXT stuff with tweeters. And Jule/ Eich stuff out front. Not cheap but it was how I ultimately got the expansiveness and “aliveness” I was after. If I wake up one day and determine my tastes have changed or otherwise abandon the hi fi project I suspect I may end up with Mesa.

Note, I didn’t try the Genz stuff in this end of the spectrum and would expect them to knock it out of the park. Their Neo cab was incredible and I loved the Streamliner I played it through, which had its own mini tube thing going on but totally punched above its weight class. Their gear could be a great next stop.

In looking for the transparency/FRFR thing, the BG-450 and Stomp through the K12.2 were all I tried. At the time, I had mainly been playing through a Fender Rumble Stage 800, and liked it a lot more than the PJB and probably about the same as the Stomp/QSC rig. My testing was not extensive in any way and with my ears it likely would have made no difference if it had been. My mind had long been leaning toward the Subway gear, but on some level I felt it a bridge too far to go that route when I'm not gigging and have no plans nor desire to do so. Glad I got over that and went for it (Mesa gear, not gigs).

Additionally, I don't think I'm a "one sound" guy. I'm pretty sure I would dig the Berg and Jule stuff just fine. Probably the Markbass stuff too, if I could get over my aversion to the yellow. That's how I lived with my Ski-Jumped El Toro for way longer than I should have - just pop into the nearest phone booth and emerge as my alter ego: "Super Confirmation Bias Man".

 

[LakeEffect]

Lmao, I hear you on the yellow. And without a doubt.. ALL the gear mentioned so far in this thread sounds incredible. I think the PJB stuff too is really top notch. It’s all good cooking, just different flavors..

OP curious to see what you end up with!

 

[lowfreqgeek]

Everyone will suggest their favorite amp, and I am no exception.

Trickfish. Anything from Trickfish.

I was a dedicated PJB user for a number of years. I owned and gigged a Super Flightcase, D600, C4, C8, a Bass Buddy Pre, and a Double Four with upright and electric. Now none of those were particularly boxy or muddy sounding compared to the Bass Cub, but when I heard Trickfish for the first time, I started selling off my PJB and bought a Bullhead 1k, SM112, and SM110 cabs, and eventually a TF408 cab.

To be fair, there were some things I liked about PJB, and some of my change-over was for features as much as tone. However, I always felt like I was pushing the C4 and C8 to their limits and that went away with the Trickfish. Also, the DIs on the PJBs were post-EQ and I didn't always want that. I had a relay failure on my Super Flightcase, which I diagnosed and replaced myself (with PJB Tech support sending me a schematic). I never trusted the amp after that, despite using a good quality replacement relay. While they were nicely engineered, there was a definite difference between the Chinese engineering of PJB and the American engineering of Trickfish (I'm qualified to speak to that as an Electrical Engineer who designs PCBs and equipment - and yes, I've opened up both).

As for the sound, Trickfish is warm, punchy, and clear. Every note is thick, but tight on the bottom and clear on top, but not bright (unless you EQ it that way). The response is quick and articulate. It just sounds right to my ears.

 

[roccobass]

a bass cub pro is a tiny combo, if you need it loud, it will sound boxy. not sure, which extension cab do you have -- a c2 or a c4, but more speakers definitely helps. to put it in some comparable perspective, four 5" drivers are roughly equal to one good 10", a set-up that's definitely on a small side for gigging.

try a 2x10 cab or combo. jazz? IDK, one of MarkBass 102 combos?

I agree.

I was not impressed when I checked out the bass pro cub. I play jazz too and use the
PJ C4 coupled with either a Mesa D800 or my TT800 and it’s very smooth with punch.

 

[porterbass]

This sounds a lot like a cab issue, not an amp issue per se.

The BG120 in my experience is a very honky and nasal sounding cab. Same goes for any PJB cab that uses the very small drivers. I don't like them very much.

The CAB27 (and CAB47 and 67 by extension) on the other hand are my go to recommendation for punchy and clear sounds on a not so big budget. They are pretty much like a PA speaker.

The be all end all solution imho is a Barefaced Big Baby or Big Twin (if you're mad). These are excellent cabinets for clear and punchy bass sound without compromise but they are pricey.

As for standalone amplifier: basically any modern amp head that is rated at 500W rms @4Ω or higher and not made by TC.Electronic. (they have very aggressive limiters in their power amps which they use for sound shaping, so you either like their soft tone or you don't). The sensible choice would be the Harley Benton 800 Block. It's got the same 700W ICEPower module that is used in most class-d amps like Mesa, Darkglass, Ampeg Venture series, Aguilar etc. So you get very good performance for your money. The preamp is neutral and absolutely fine.

^^^^I agree with this completely. This is a cab issue, not an amp issue.

I've had most of the Phil Jones combos and amps over the years, other than the CAB 27/47/67 series. The Bass Cub series is my least favorite because of the cabinet sound. I found them "compressed", honky, and kind of a tunnel effect (choked is a good term to describe). I also found them very dependent on placement and room, so the tone, fullness, and volume varied a lot depending on the environment and placement.

I've always found Phil's amps to be very transparent as well as most of the cabinets and combos. In this situation, we're talking about a pair of 2x4" cabinets. That's not going to compare well against the 15 PA speaker setup nor many of the suggestions here, though there are larger PJB cabinets that will.