US income inequality at record high

[Marial]

I don't disagree.

We're regressing to the historical mean, and that is an awful thing.

Agreed.

 

[nashvillebill]

This is more than a bit off the thread topic, but let's examine a common green energy technology and its overall usefulness.

I'll use a solar cell as an example. Consider the energy expended in mining the materials to constuct the panel, the energy expended in refining the base materials, the energy expended in manufacturing the panel, the energy expended in transporting the raw materials and finished product. Also consider the energy used in the manufacture of the mining equipment, the base material refining equipment, the production equipment, etc. When it's all said and done, you don't get much return on the energy invested in the green solar panel.

The same energy return on energy invested analysis can be applied to other green energy devices as well.

Here's a good article explaining EROI. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Energy_returned_on_energy_invested

Note solar at 1.9, ethanol and biodiesel are lower--but still greater than 1.

 

[sloasdaylight]

Here's a good article explaining EROI. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Energy_returned_on_energy_invested

Note solar at 1.9, ethanol and biodiesel are lower--but still greater than 1.

And both are substantially lower than the current methods we're using to get power.

 

[NWB]

Here's a good article explaining EROI. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Energy_returned_on_energy_invested

Note solar at 1.9, ethanol and biodiesel are lower--but still greater than 1.

Thank you very much for the article Bill. I know that solar isn't a loss, but it's not a great return either. Wind was higher than I expected.

The EROI of oil and gas between 1970 and 2005 is very interesting. The decreased EROI seen in oil and gas provides some insight into present-day oil prices.

 

[rude_basstard]

Call me a jerk, but I really don't give two ***** about income inequality. It doesn't matter to me that a handful of people in the country have more money than God. Why compare the poor to them? Let's take a look at the poor, what makes them poor, what is the result of being poor, and what can be done to help? If a wealthy man is wealthy by honest means, then he should not be punished for his success. If his gains are gotten through theft and fraud, then that's a different story, but one shouldn't assume that just because someone is wealthy that he made his money on the backs of the poor any more than one should assume someone is poor because they're too lazy to work.

Stop comparing people and look at how the poorest are doing. That's how we should judge the nation's success.

 

[macaroni tony]

good post basstard

 

[Unrepresented]

Call me a jerk, but I really don't give two ***** about income inequality. It doesn't matter to me that a handful of people in the country have more money than God. Why compare the poor to them? Let's take a look at the poor, what makes them poor, what is the result of being poor, and what can be done to help? If a wealthy man is wealthy by honest means, then he should not be punished for his success. If his gains are gotten through theft and fraud, then that's a different story, but one shouldn't assume that just because someone is wealthy that he made his money on the backs of the poor any more than one should assume someone is poor because they're too lazy to work.

Stop comparing people and look at how the poorest are doing. That's how we should judge the nation's success.

I dislike tyranny. When there is a collection of power in so few hands we're subject to their tyranny both directly and indirectly.

 

[i_got_a_mohawk]

This is more than a bit off the thread topic, but let's examine a common green energy technology and its overall usefulness.

I'll use a solar cell as an example. Consider the energy expended in mining the materials to constuct the panel, the energy expended in refining the base materials, the energy expended in manufacturing the panel, the energy expended in transporting the raw materials and finished product. Also consider the energy used in the manufacture of the mining equipment, the base material refining equipment, the production equipment, etc. When it's all said and done, you don't get much return on the energy invested in the green solar panel.

The same energy return on energy invested analysis can be applied to other green energy devices as well.

I think the promising thing to keep in mind is that there is still a return on the energy invested, even if it is low at present. We aren't at the end stage of any of those technologies. Sticking with the solar cell example, the light to electricity conversion efficiencies are increasing, relatively slowly, but increasing all the same. The energy required to produce many is also decreasing.

And both are substantially lower than the current methods we're using to get power.

Also true, but it isn't like it's going to be an overnight switch over, it's a gradual process. Plus we're talking about a point in a hypothetical future, potentially after the lot of us have kicked the bucket (prettymuch everything being fully automated and the energy required). Basically, when it comes to resources, energy is one which we have in plenty. It's just the conversion to electrical energy which is the issue.


Also, for what it's worth, ~40% of the electricity in my country comes from renewable sources now, with hopes for that to be 100% in the next 10-15 years. Granted, we are fortunate in that we have a high coast length to surface area, it ain't calm waters either, so tidal is viable. Plenty of wind coming in off the Gulf Stream too.

 

[Unprofessional]

Call me a jerk, but I really don't give two ***** about income inequality. It doesn't matter to me that a handful of people in the country have more money than God. Why compare the poor to them? Let's take a look at the poor, what makes them poor, what is the result of being poor, and what can be done to help? If a wealthy man is wealthy by honest means, then he should not be punished for his success. If his gains are gotten through theft and fraud, then that's a different story, but one shouldn't assume that just because someone is wealthy that he made his money on the backs of the poor any more than one should assume someone is poor because they're too lazy to work.

Stop comparing people and look at how the poorest are doing. That's how we should judge the nation's success.

But, I kind of like the amateur street theatre stuff. You know, with the posters and the chants and the Che t-shirts and the masks.

 

[i_got_a_mohawk]

the Che t-shirts

These days, whenever I see those t-shirts, this is what jumps to mind:

 

[NWB]

I dislike tyranny. When there is a collection of power in so few hands we're subject to their tyranny both directly and indirectly.

Can you cite any specific examples of this tyranny?

 

[Unrepresented]

Can you cite any specific examples of this tyranny?

How about the topic of this thread for an example?

The rich have become richer at the expense of the rest of the population over the last few decades and they're gaining momentum. I will refrain from a more direct discussion of politics so as not to jeopardize this thread, but their influence is far greater than any member of society should have.

 

[Lee Moses]

How about the topic of this thread for an example?

The rich have become richer at the expense of the rest of the population over the last few decades and they're gaining momentum. I will refrain from a more direct discussion of politics so as not to jeopardize this thread, but their influence is far greater than any member of society should have.

Can you prove this boldfaced part? Who is worse off because of their increased riches? Look at countries whose top-end earners make much less than our country's top-end earners do--are their low-end earners better off for it?

There seems to be a misconception that all the wealth in America is like a pie, and that once the pieces are taken there is no more pie. But wealth reproduces--the more that people have, the more there is.

 

[sloasdaylight]

Also true, but it isn't like it's going to be an overnight switch over, it's a gradual process. Plus we're talking about a point in a hypothetical future, potentially after the lot of us have kicked the bucket (prettymuch everything being fully automated and the energy required). Basically, when it comes to resources, energy is one which we have in plenty. It's just the conversion to electrical energy which is the issue.

Yea, I agree with you, and I think anyone with half a brain about them will agree that the switch from traditional fossil fuels is going to be a slow and gradual one that picks up speed as the technology is refined further. The thing that worries me is what countries like Germany are doing with renewable energy, and some of the unintended consequences of moving to something like that too rapidly, kind of like what seems to be happening in Germany right now. Renewable energy is will hopefully be the way everything goes over the course of my lifetime, but I hope it's done properly.

Invalid Link Removed

*Note: I don't know if spiegel is the German equivalent of "The Daily Planet" or not.

 

[avvie]

Can you cite any specific examples of this tyranny?

Bureocracy is a form of tyranny specifically named in the list of 21 complaints against King George in the DOI.

Also see: drug war property seizures and IRS abuse.

 

[BawanaRik]

Call me a jerk, but I really don't give two ***** about income inequality. It doesn't matter to me that a handful of people in the country have more money than God. Why compare the poor to them? Let's take a look at the poor, what makes them poor, what is the result of being poor, and what can be done to help? If a wealthy man is wealthy by honest means, then he should not be punished for his success. If his gains are gotten through theft and fraud, then that's a different story, but one shouldn't assume that just because someone is wealthy that he made his money on the backs of the poor any more than one should assume someone is poor because they're too lazy to work.

Stop comparing people and look at how the poorest are doing. That's how we should judge the nation's success.

We have the richest "poor" people to ever walk the face of the earth. They live better than Kings

 

[Unrepresented]

We have the richest "poor" people to ever walk the face of the earth. They live better than Kings

For all this talk of how good the bottom has it, I find it somewhat disingenuous that it's coming from presumably comfortable middle class posters. Why not take that vow of poverty if you believe they have it so easy?

 

[spade2you]

I dislike tyranny. When there is a collection of power in so few hands we're subject to their tyranny both directly and indirectly.

Show us the tyrants that are holding people back. Which tyrants are making students not learn as much at school or making sure that workers possess less skills?

We have the richest "poor" people to ever walk the face of the earth. They live better than Kings

Probably not better than kings, but if we compare our poor to the poor of 3rd world nations, it's tough to complain when our poor have cell phones, food, cable, a ~50" TV, etc.

 

[avvie]

We have the richest "poor" people to ever walk the face of the earth. They live better than Kings

That argument is entirely irrelevant and moot. Poverty is determined by the economy in which it exists. While we may have a higher standard of living the cost of it is still astronomically high to most of us. Not only that but it is actually ILLEGAL to live in American towns as poor people in other countries do. Your statement is nothing mpre than class warrior propaganda.

 

[NWB]

How about the topic of this thread for an example?

The rich have become richer at the expense of the rest of the population over the last few decades and they're gaining momentum. I will refrain from a more direct discussion of politics so as not to jeopardize this thread, but their influence is far greater than any member of society should have.

I'm not really coming after you on the inequality thing, but what you're describing hardly qualifies as tyranny. Tyranny may be characterized by brutal acts of a ruling elite such as being put in prison or taken out and shot without so much as a trial. I'm not seeing that in the US. If people were permanently disappearing after criticizing the government or elites, then I'd say that's tyranny.

All I'm saying is to characterize the situation for what it actually is, which is not tyranny by nearly any definition.