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US income inequality at record high

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I provided you with an example of a "group" (Bank of America, JPMorgan Chase, Wells Fargo, Citi and GMAC/Ally) of wealthy institutions that were able to "force" certain middle-class families into financial hardship. I never "implied" that I could prove that every single person above a certain income threshold was guilty of a crime. That seems like an unnecessarily high bar to clear, no? But if my one example (of $25 billion dollars of fraud in our top banks) proves "nothing" to you about the problems in this country, then I don't know what to tell you.

I don't believe they didn't force anyone into hardship. I think you'll find that these mortgages we enter into on a volunteer basis from both sides. Adults and all.

Look at the size of some of these houses that were foreclosed. Larger than any normal person could use. And not a wise choice to go in debt for. Smaller houses, like the rest of world lives in is a good idea. In fact it appears the US is headed in that direction.

Living Large may sound good but really is it worth it to go deep in debt to do so? It's my opinion the answer is no.
 
I've read it here and there about the dwindling middle class, but I'd still like to find a statistical source of that statement. Not saying it isn't true, but I'd like a source study is all.

I can easily envision a scenario of the wealthy "screwing" the middle class. Consider the example of a large corporation moving its manufacturing operations offshore to communist China. The corporation gains increased profits from lower foreign labor costs while the erstwhile US workers are now on unemployment. Alternatively, the corporation may issue the threat of sending jobs offshore unless lower wage rates are accepted by the workers.

Ooooooooh. Good one. I'm going to dance on the political line here but I'm not taking sides because both are guilty. If I cross the line, PLEASE just let me know so I can delete it or simply delete it yourself. I don't want to trash all of our fun debating by unknowingly crossing the line. This is more economics rather than politics. It is the system we have all created for ourselves. Thank you.

The government creates the situations you are referring to. Costly regulation and taxes are the primary reasons for jobs moving overseas, not wages. So, no corporation has threatened "We will move overseas unless you take lower pay".


They have threatened "Lower the corporate tax rate, and quit regulating us to death, and forcing us to spend a gagillion dollars a year covering our butts with paperwork, and quit forcing us to replace hard hats every twenty minutes when the old ones are fine, and quit forcing us (through unions) to provide way too costly benefits packages, and quit forcing us to provide yoga mats in the break room, and quit forcing us to provide a bus to and from the parking lot, and quit forcing us to have a gagillion hours per year of executive sensitivity training, and quit forcing us to hire this guy because of the color of his skin rather than hire the more qualified guy who just graduated and will work for less, and...... yada yada yada or we will take jobs over..... oh..... too late. Never mind. Carry on. We'll be over in China and will keep our money over there because if we were to bring it back here to invest it would be taxed at 35%. Thank you."

Sooooooo try again.
 
Making good choices is behavior that is taught and in the case of children in poverty it's not taught very well. Success in education has more to do with parental involvement than it does poverty . . .

Now I think you're getting at it! Poverty is perpetuated from generation to generation not because there is no escape from poverty, but because generations continue to be taught habits that will keep them in poverty. But if a person chooses to apply himself in high school and keep himself out of trouble, he can easily find the financial aid to get him through college and prepare himself for a successful career as he continues to apply himself.


. . . but poverty is a major cause of reduced parental involvement. Mom and dad have less time with the children when they need to work 3 jobs to pay the bills your parents could pay with one.

For parents who find themselves forced to do such, I have the utmost respect and compassion. However, most homes below the poverty line are not working that hard . . . they are receiving welfare, or, more typically, SSI, which has become the new welfare. And this (which is largely funded from the pockets of the rich) is one of the worst teachers of young people in poverty of how to apply themselves and escape poverty. Young people instead learn how to milk the system, avoid working . . . and remain in poverty for another generation.
 
Ooooooooh. Good one. I'm going to dance on the political line here but I'm not taking sides because both are guilty. If I cross the line, PLEASE just let me know so I can delete it or simply delete it yourself. I don't want to trash all of our fun debating by unknowingly crossing the line. This is more economics rather than politics. It is the system we have all created for ourselves. Thank you.

The government creates the situations you are referring to. Costly regulation and taxes are the primary reasons for jobs moving overseas, not wages. So, no corporation has threatened "We will move overseas unless you take lower pay".


They have threatened "Lower the corporate tax rate, and quit regulating us to death, and forcing us to spend a gagillion dollars a year covering our butts with paperwork, and quit forcing us to replace hard hats every twenty minutes when the old ones are fine, and quit forcing us (through unions) to provide way too costly benefits packages, and quit forcing us to provide yoga mats in the break room, and quit forcing us to provide a bus to and from the parking lot, and quit forcing us to have a gagillion hours per year of executive sensitivity training, and quit forcing us to hire this guy because of the color of his skin rather than hire the more qualified guy who just graduated and will work for less, and...... yada yada yada or we will take jobs over..... oh..... too late. Never mind. Carry on. We'll be over in China and will keep our money over there because if we were to bring it back here to invest it would be taxed at 35%. Thank you."

Sooooooo try again.

Actually lack of an educated work force is another one of the big reasons given for jobs being off shored. Perhaps the number one.

With the opportunities here for an education there's is no reason for that.
 
I don't believe they didn't force anyone into hardship. I think you'll find that these mortgages we enter into on a volunteer basis from both sides. Adults and all.

Look at the size of some of these houses that were foreclosed. Larger than any normal person could use. And not a wise choice to go in debt for. Smaller houses, like the rest of world lives in is a good idea. In fact it appears the US is headed in that direction.

Living Large may sound good but really is it worth it to go deep in debt to do so? It's my opinion the answer is no.

Again, I am not talking about people who took out too big of a loan, I am talking about banks using fraudulent means to foreclose on homes illegally. This is why I suggest you read a newspaper once in a while.
 
I provided you with an example of a "group" (Bank of America, JPMorgan Chase, Wells Fargo, Citi and GMAC/Ally) of wealthy institutions that were able to "force" certain middle-class families into financial hardship. I never "implied" that I could prove that every single person above a certain income threshold was guilty of a crime. That seems like an unnecessarily high bar to clear, no? But if my one example (of $25 billion dollars of fraud in our top banks) proves "nothing" to you about the problems in this country, then I don't know what to tell you.

Again, this discussion has to do with the income disparity in the U.S., and that is seen as the problem. Of course I have a problem with instances when individuals or corporations conduct themselves illegally or unethically. But the isolated instances do not prove that is why the income disparity exists.
 
So, you guys getting much done with all the back and forth and all?

Nope. But the debate is still interesting. I don't think anyone here really believes he will change the mind of someone "over there".

Although any of them who play anything other than a burst P with flats and a tort guard (foam mute, of course) are just communist bastards and should burn in........
 
If'n this is your idea of exploitation, shouldn't you be much more angry at the food chain?


I would likely have developed the food chain differently if it were upon me to create a more moral way for living things to coexist.

Of course we can live like whatever animals we'd like to and claim it's "natural" whether that is individualistic cannibalism, rape, and murder or cooperative societies with a common goal and means of achieving it.
No, it is not. That employer is providing a service I can't provide for myself. And MARKET and an OUTLET for my talents. Say, for instance, I am good a machining things (using various lathes and other equipment to make things out of metal). I can't go out and buy the million dollars worth of equipment it takes to machine metal. Even if I had a crapload of equipment, I simply can't start milling things for a profit (due in part to the ridiculous amount of regulations dealing with starting/running a business). Now, an employer comes along and says "I have all that equipment. I have a building. I have money. You have talent. Let;s see if we can work out a MUTUALLY BENEFICIAL COMBINATION of all those things." THAT is what employment is. I TOO and PROFITING from my talents, only in a way that I could not have done on my own. And nobody (in the private sector anyway) "created conditions" that made it harder for me to start my own business than it was the guy who hired me to machine things.

Employment is NOT the exploitation of anything. It is a CONTRACT that is AGREED TO by both parties. You provide service X, Y, and Z. I provide money. It is no different than my hiring a good HVAC installer (and paying through the nose for a new HVAC unit by the way). He provided me with a new unit and the labor to install it. I could have gone to anyone of my choosing to get a new system. I provided money in return for the new system and labor. And we both agreed to a level of compensation/satisfaction. Employment. I employed him.

Nobody at Wal-Mart is being exploited. Those people went to an office, willingly filled out an application, and agreed to provide X, Y, and Z (unboxing materials, running cash registers, etc.) in return for an agreed-upon amount of compensation. Everybody volunteered. End of story. Exploitation nonexistent.

Now, the phrase "true worth" is where it gets murky. We hear speeches all the time that claim "If we can save one life, then (giving up liberties X,Y and Z and pouring a gagillion dollars into the problem) will be all worth it." In my view, this simply is not the case. However, if you accept the premise of speeches like this, then NOBODY can be compensated for his "true worth". So, I find that to be a false argument, as well as an undefinable amount. And, you are correct in the assumption that just jumped into your head. In a free market, you are worth what the market will bare for your talents. So, here, whatever the most you can make for doing a particular job (or minimum wage, whichever comes first) IS the "true worth" of your particular talent. David Ortiz (Go SOX!) can whack a baseball a country mile. That is worth miliions because the market says it is. People will pay dearly to watch him do it or wear a shirt with his name on it (even ..... dare I say it...... the poor). Unboxing towels at Wal-Mart is worth $7 and change an hour. Anybody can do it. It is not a talent at all. So it is worth less. That doesn't mean that the people DOING it are worth less. But they are providing a service to society that we find to be worth less. However, if those towel unboxers were to learn how to fwack the living daylights out of a baseball, they could go stand right beside Big Poppy (Otriz) and make a gagillion dollars a minute in this country, rather than being told "get back to work" as they are in many others.

There you have it. Simple. And, in my view, beautiful in its simplicity.
Your market description is more reasonable when it is one individual with a set of skills and assets engaging in a common goal with another individual with a similar set of skills and assets.

The further you deviate from that ideal situation the uglier the imbalances become. It quickly devolves into one individual being blocked from skills and assets and needing access to those skills and assets through an organized group of people who seek to offer those at the highest price the market will tolerate.
 
Your market description is more reasonable when it is one individual with a set of skills and assets engaging in a common goal with another individual with a similar set of skills and assets.

The further you deviate from that ideal situation the uglier the imbalances become. It quickly devolves into one individual being blocked from skills and assets and needing access to those skills and assets through an organized group of people who seek to offer those at the highest price the market will tolerate.

OK, fine. Let's try to stay a little bit specific. HOW are they being "blocked from skills and assets"? What skills? What assets? Why can't some people get them? Who is blocking them? How are they doing it?
 
Wait. We have a witness to the atrocities!

So, what happened? How did they hold you back? Who did it?

Well, I was placing all the major players of the food chain on equal ground when this Pharoah came along with all his gold and his slaves built a pyramid atop of it.

Can you freakin' believe that? A PYRAMID! Everything is going to roll right the **** off of it!
 
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