Double Bass Use amp for better time ?

[oldNewbie]

Does anyone use an amp in a smaller playing context when they could play without one to allow lighter touch and more consistent time ?
A few months ago I changed bow approach and got a much better sound. Unfortunately also developed elbow tendonitis, made worse in pizz . After stopping entirely for a couple of weeks I've completely changed the way I hold the instrument - standing instead of sitting for one - and greatly improved my understanding of body mechanics especially pelvis/torso/shoulder coordination. I have several old (and some new!) injuries, managed by intensive PT and exercise, which were used in the past to manage symptoms - sitting was managing those . This recent complete change was enabled by finding that after some recent change in PT regimen I could actually stand up for long-enough periods , and gradually working out the mechanics up the rest of the kinetic chain, and working on getting the better sounds without injury.
One group I play with regularly is a gypsy jazz jam with 4-6 guitars , an accordion , a fiddle or two, maybe a mandolin. I can keep up with volume by a two-finger pluck and have a resonant bass with a loud D string. I've been working through different pizz motions . I record the sessions and have found that the open strings can be a whole lot louder than stopped strings, and take some cycles to build, so the big ~boom~ can be pretty late, and the rhythm of the group gets clunky. This is especially true with a more "legit" pizz with arm and finger perpendicular to the string. The jazz more-parallel motion is tricky to do with the new motion, as it requires stopping old bad habits .
So while working on the new motions , it's also necessary to practice even volume and time. Recording with a metronome clicking in the room , and mybe Quartet over a speaker has been helping, I think. But another piece may be stopping strings instead of using open , and also backing off louder notes. But as the notes get more even the overall volume goes down. I have a small amp and pickup but have resisted because recordings of the jams show that with my old just-yank-on-it pizz or arco, it's too loud. I know, just turn the thing down, or off when the bow comes out.
Anyone use an amp and a lighter touch ?
Are there ten threads I haven't looked for about this ?

 

[JazznFunk]

Does anyone use an amp in a smaller playing context when they could play without one to allow lighter touch and more consistent time ?

Yes. It's not just the band members and their volume, it's also the room. So much can contribute to not being able to hear yourself well unplugged (coupled with the fact that we are at/on top of the instrument) and having the amp helps precisely with the things you mentioned. I loathe having to play harder to be heard, and losing the nuance and overall dynamics in my playing. Sometimes having to play too hard chokes the tone of the instrument, and you absolutely can run into time issues if you're physically fighting too hard to be heard. Do what you have to do to be musical, heard, and comfortable... and don't exaggerate your injuries.

 

[Wasnex]

I would say yes.

I was a military musician. When I first started the job I stayed acoustic for classical playing and used an amp for jazz and commercial. About a year into the job, the conductor asked me to try the amp for classical in concert band. I pretty much always used an amp for the rest of my career.

For jazz and commercial, I filled the bass's rhythm section role; so I was loud enough to carry the band. When playing in a classical style, I backed the volume off to blend with the "bass section."

Of course I wouldn't consider an amp in an actual orchestra. My expectation is that I will barely hear my bass in anything larger than a medium chamber orchestra. My early orchestral training was to pretty much to wail on the instrument. However, the last person I took lessons from (in another part of the country) had a different philosophy. His idea was to play efficiently with optimum force. His basses were set up to play very easily. He was the principal for his section, so I assume his philosophy was mirrored by other players. I will say his basses were surprisingly loud given how easily they played.

 

[Bruce Calin]

This discussion is similar to one going on concerning playing being heard amped in loud ambient noise situations. I mentioned there that those of us who came of age playing in the all-acoustic days before amps had a different concept of bass sound and volume. It was more about efficiency and perception of what is going out in terms of what we hear from our position as players. I believe it was Bob Cranshaw who described feeling the vibration of the instrument as an aid to hearing it. There's obviously a limit to how loud any acoustic instrument can play, and music in general is expected to be much louder in performance settings as years go by. In spite of that, IMO it's a good idea to do some all acoustic playing as part of developing the ability to play efficiently without too much dependence on the amp. It will also give a better idea of the true sound of the bass if we try to listen from that perspective. How did players hear the bass back in the old days? Check it out.

 

[sean_on_bass]

Does anyone use an amp in a smaller playing context when they could play without one to allow lighter touch and more consistent time ?

Nope - i am way too committed to playing acoustically whenever possible to improve my core sound. Like the idea of practicing with an amp is bonkers to me, unless you are just testing out the gear. I'm assuming though we are talking about situations where i don't need the amp to be heard. If you need it, you need it and should use it.

With that said, if it's between that or not playing at all, then go ahead and use the amp. Things like health issues are pretty valid reasons to not pursue what i consider the ideal.

 

[JazznFunk]

Nope - i am way too committed to playing acoustically whenever possible to improve my core sound. Like the idea of practicing with an amp is bonkers to me, unless you are just testing out the gear. I'm assuming though we are talking about situations where i don't need the amp to be heard. If you need it, you need it and should use it.

With that said, if it's between that or not playing at all, then go ahead and use the amp. Things like health issues are pretty valid reasons to not pursue what i consider the ideal.

I'll counter with one specific point: practicing with an amp is ESSENTIAL if you are planning to use that amp regularly and need to know where and how to adjust preamp and EQ frequency points to make your tone sound as natural as possible, and how that changes as the volume goes up. It does take work to know the specifics of your pickup/amp/bass and how it all interacts. If you are planning to use an amp even for subtle sound reinforcement, you have to put in the work so it sounds good, just like getting the tone out of the bass itself.

 

[Earl]

What Bruce said 100%. For the louder open strings try cutting a strip of rubber band and putting it under the strings right next to the nut, fingerboard side. This will make the open strings resonate like stopped notes.

 

[Ed Fuqua]

I dunno, sounds like a practice issue rather than a volume issue. I think it was Neal Miner that said "the best amplifier is a solid left (fingerboard) hand". If you're solidly stopping the note that should "replace" the nut; sure as the string length gets shorter you'll have less sustain, but that's true even playing amplified.
How much time do you spend playing long arco tones going through the scales and arpeggios? That's really the best way to build left hand stability and endurance.

The other issue is, of course, your state of recovery. Repetitive stress injuries, tendonitis, etc. do take a toll. If you're playing guts (or partial guts) and a string height that allows for a lot of bounce and projection, I'm not sure that a 'lighter touch" there is going to get you what you're looking for. Maybe look into steel strings, lowering the string height (which will most often lower the amount of volume your bass puts out acoustically), and then amplify as needed. And that may be just close miking the bass through the PA the group is using; personally I find using a mic shoved up between the bridge feet gets a better live sound than miking the F hole.

 

[Huy Nguyen]

I’m with Ed. I suspect also that one’s intonation (also a left hand thing) contributes far more than we probably want to admit when it comes to being perceived clearly or loudly. I’ve been on 5ths tuning for over a year (granted I haven’t been gigging) I feel like it’s easier to be hear and hear oneself since intonation is easier.

There’s no hiding when it comes to working with the bow.

 

[Wasnex]

Although I gigged with an amp regularly, I never used an amp to practice on upright.

When I am playing by upright myself, an amp makes the connection with the instrument less intimate. This is true when playing in an ensemble as well, but if the amp is necessary to provide sufficient volume to balance with the ensemble, I consider the loss of intimacy an acceptable compromise.

When it gets to the point where I have to overplay in order to provide enough sound, the amp starts to become beneficial. I generally adjust the amp so that I can play with what I consider optimal intensity. I will concede that my acoustic sound is anemic compared to what most decent orchestral players can deliver. For me this was not a concern since my job required me to use an amp for rehearsals and concerts.

I think the comment that you need to practice adjusting the amp can make sense. But this is not something I needed since I used an amp regularly and have a lot of experience. For context, I regularly played bass guitar through the same amp, so I was familiar with how the controls work. I am also familiar with quite a few techniques that are specific to getting a good amplified upright sound and dealing with feedback. I also have a background as an audio tech.

 

[JazznFunk]

I think the comment that you need to practice adjusting the amp can make sense. But this is not something I needed since I used an amp regularly and have a lot of experience. For context, I regularly played bass guitar through the same amp, so I was familiar with how the controls work. I am also familiar with quite a few techniques that are specific to getting a good amplified upright sound and dealing with feedback. I also have a background as an audio tech.

It comes down to knowing what frequencies are problematic, and understanding what to cut (not boost) first.... something that even experienced players struggle with if they aren't well-versed in frequencies and sculpting a sound. That's where the 'practice getting a good sound with the amp' part comes from. Players also, if they use an amp, should understand how to adjust things once the volume does go up. What worked at a quieter volume may take more attention as volume rises, or other issues become present in the room. It also helps to know how 'your sound' and your approach to your collective concept of sound changes when using an amp. Since we end up being our own 'front of house' techs in many cases, it's crucial. It's also crucial to know what frequencies typically need adjusting for your particular concept of sound if you're working with a FOH engineer. YMMV.

 

[JazznFunk]

I’m with Ed. I suspect also that one’s intonation (also a left hand thing) contributes far more than we probably want to admit when it comes to being perceived clearly or loudly. I’ve been on 5ths tuning for over a year (granted I haven’t been gigging) I feel like it’s easier to be hear and hear oneself since intonation is easier.

There’s no hiding when it comes to working with the bow.

Agreed. Accurate intonation (which depends on hearing oneself well) definitely contributes to the confidence to commit to a note, which means you won't hold back like you would if you were tentative. But... intonation can't overcome physics. We can only get so loud as an acoustic instrument. I find that my intonation suffers if I can't hear myself well.... and the amp helps with that confidence in situations above a certain volume.

 

[Wasnex]

It comes down to knowing what frequencies are problematic, and understanding what to cut (not boost) first.... something that even experienced players struggle with if they aren't well-versed in frequencies and sculpting a sound. That's where the 'practice getting a good sound with the amp' part comes from. Players also, if they use an amp, should understand how to adjust things once the volume does go up. What worked at a quieter volume may take more attention as volume rises, or other issues become present in the room.

Absolutely correct!

As you turn up, the feedback loop between the speaker and bass becomes stronger. This progressively degrades the natural tone. At some point it also will result in feedback and string pump. String pump is when certain ranges of the bass start to have lots of sustain. In extreme cases, some notes may ring indefinitely until you mute the string.

The bass, pickup, amp, cab, and acoustic environment have to be thought of as a system. The response of this system is nonlinear and has several resonances. As you turn up, the resonances tend to become more active and the overall response gets more and more uneven. Some of the system resonances are based on physical distances between the bass and the speaker. So moving your gear around are flipping a polarity switch may help.

You can progressively apply corrective EQ. Deep, narrow notches can be centered over single frequencies that want to feedback. IME 4 to 6 deep notches can be used before you reach the point of diminishing returns. Notching out the most dominant resonances also tends to make the sound more even and natural. Gentle wideband EQ can be use for more general tone shaping and to mitigate string pump to some extent.

To be really effective you need a powerful and flexible EQ. I have had luck with 31-band graphics and fully parametric EQ. With a 30- or 31-band graphic, the filters are narrow and spaced at 1/3 octave. IME this allows you to be precise enough to effectively notch out feedback. Graphic EQs with less than 30 bands can still be useful, but the filters are wider and spaced further apart, which makes them less effective.

A fully parametric EQ allows you to adjust the center frequency, bandwidth, and how much cut is applied. This means you can be even more precise than a 31-band graphic. The issue with parametric EQs is they don't tend to have enough filters to do everything you require. Also parametric EQ tends to more confusing/harder to adjust and tends to take longer.

I think most players make due with just the controls on their amp. My GK 700RB/112 combo actually worked pretty well with upright.

 

[sean_on_bass]

There’s no hiding when it comes to working with the bow.

It's honestly amazing how just 5 minutes with the bow brings my left hand back into shape.

 

[sean_on_bass]

I think the comment that you need to practice adjusting the amp can make sense. But this is not something I needed since I used an amp regularly and have a lot of experience. For context, I regularly played bass guitar through the same amp, so I was familiar with how the controls work. I am also familiar with quite a few techniques that are specific to getting a good amplified upright sound and dealing with feedback. I also have a background as an audio tech.

For me this is something i do with brand new gear, but kind of ends there. i ultimately practice this on the gig since whatever tone i dial in at home is likely to be lost in the room on the gig anyways. so for me it doesn't make sense to frequently practice with an amp at home and i legit find it unenjoyable/counterproductive to my goals.

 

[oldNewbie]

Thanks to all for a useful discussion. @Ed Fuqua and @Huy Nguyen, absolutely intonation and a strong front of the note is essential and deserves daily practice and constant attention. Like Alex Hanna said in a master class in '24 and on YT , "you have to prove every note".
Making me think I haven't been doing enough pizz as practice. My routine is ~2 hrs/day , first half open strings - Bow Speed Geography(the book) -long tone scales-double stops-vomits- an etude,If I have more time and want to do some interleaved practice, might do 3-5 min in the scales playing gypsy jazz heads but usually with bow . 2nd hour is rep: Bach , local community orchestra next concert , finally the last 20 min has been gypsy jazz, learning charts. So only the last 20 min is really pizz.
Looking that over, and given a relatively modest time daily, I think that my left hand for the bow is getting enough attention but not pizz fundamentals. Probably useful to record pizz scales too like other practice items get recorded. Seems obvious now.
And also @JazznFunk work with the amp at home to get a solid sound and bring it to the jam, maybe leave it on low for now would be prudent.
Appreciate the words, hive.

 

[JazznFunk]

For me this is something i do with brand new gear, but kind of ends there. i ultimately practice this on the gig since whatever tone i dial in at home is likely to be lost in the room on the gig anyways. so for me it doesn't make sense to frequently practice with an amp at home and i legit find it unenjoyable/counterproductive to my goals.

I get the confusion, which might be how I'm framing it. I'm not talking about finding a tone at home and then hoping it translates to the gig. That rarely, if ever works. It's more about 'hey, how does this feature set and this particular amp work with my bass/preamp/pickup, and how can I familiarize myself with how each section works so I can dial in the room with less fuss'. And also, learning which frequencies with your bass/pickup usually need the most attention. I do have some 'defaults' for my preamp setup that sort of smooths out the known problem areas ahead of time. Those are usually the same ones the FOH has to deal with if you send them a direct signal (worst case scenario), so it gives a measure of control over what they are getting too - because some people are clueless about what a double bass is supposed to sound like - especially direct. For me, it's also about how the amp 'feels' when I'm out in front of it. My current preamp/tone shaping setup makes pretty much any amp usable for me, but there's a difference in my primary setup and my older amps in how they feel, even with the tone shaping tools being the same heading into the amp.

At the end of the day and when the 'tweaking' is done, my goal is to be able to have pre-shaped my tone enough that when I hit whatever amp it is I'm using, additional tweaks are minimal and as-required by the room.

 

[Don Kasper]

I'll just throw this out here...
Time is mostly FELT, not HEARD. It originates from (or should come from) an internal, visceral place. What is "heard" is the byproduct of your inner clock.
Right in the Feelz, Broz.
IMFO, of course.
Thx.

 

[Huy Nguyen]

It's honestly amazing how just 5 minutes with the bow brings my left hand back into shape.

Going up and down diatonically. For me it’s been 4 note arps. Slow and deliberate. Can’t hide.

That and a few bebop heads. lol

 

[Contrabenjista]

Another piece here when it comes to time: sustain/legato is a huge contributor to time and swing, and arco practice helps with sustain, by letting us hear when we stop stopping the note, and forcing us to develop technique to minimize and hide the time moving between notes.

Without that legato/sustain in our 1/4 notes, they come out choppy/syncopated, which kills the triplet bounce feel and makes staying in time harder for everyone including yourself.