Using Cab Sim Pedals and Real Cab Simultaneously

[Fraser100]

Hi folks. Hoping someone can help me out with a query I have...

I have a board I'm very happy with and I've got a Sansamp Bass Driver DI V2 at the end of the chain and use it to shape the majority of my tone. From there I use the affected 1/4" output of the Sansamp to feed to my head, which I have set with a flat EQ. Usually the in house engineer will utilise the built-in DI output of the head while I use the cab for stage volume and that's pretty much it.

I use a few drives and distortions in my chain and while the Sansamp does a decent job of taming those harsh frequencies before they get sent to front of house, I've been wondering whether it would be worth my while investing in some kind of cab simulator pedal to ensure the best tone possible is getting sent out to the desk? In my opinion there's nothing worse than the sound of a DIed distortion pedal and I want to do as much as I can to avoid it and hopefully make the engineer's job a bit easier.

I've been eyeing up the DSM & Humbolt Simplifier pedal and in theory I would channel the Sansamp's 1/4" affected output into the DSM, use the DSM's thru output straight into my amp head without tweaking the DSM's preamp stage so the Sansamp's tone remains unaffected, but instead make use of the cab sim portion of the DSM and feed the engineer that signal via the pedal's XLR output.

My question is this: if I was to go ahead with this would I likely encounter phasing issues with the DSM cab sim signal coming through the PA and the stage volume of my actual amp/cab?

Any insight would be greatly appreciated. Cheers!

 

[Gearhead17]

I am looking at doing nearly the same thing in the future. However, I am thinking of using the Darkglass Element instead of the Humboldt.

I am wondering too what others are coming across in this situation. My gut reaction says "no issue", but keep your stage volume under control.

 

[Ba55Man1ac]

Far be it from me to discourage your fx journey but Tech 21's mantra is:

Speaker simulation is an integral part of the SansAmp Tube Amplifier Emulation circuitry. It is specifically designed for a smooth, even response as would be achieved by a multiply-miked cabinet --without peaks, valleys, and notches associated with single miking-- and will complement any type of bass speaker cabinet system.

If you cascade speaker sims you might find your signal sounding over-muffled. A Tech 21 Sansamp product straight to FOH = it's intended design. A full-on drive/dist/fuzz into a DSM speaker sim product to FOH = also a winner IMHO.

 

[Fraser100]

Thanks! Yeah, I was aware the Sansamp already ‘prepares’ the signal to a decent degree in terms of sending it to FOH, but I was curious if there was anything else I could invest in to enhance things. I know the VT BDDI has an additional speaker simulation switch that would cater for this, but as you say it’ll probably have a detrimental effect on the tone coming out of the amp/stage cab and is better suited for purely straight to the desk/recording interface.

Cheers again!

 

[paskisti]

My experience is too that Sansamp (BDDI and RBI) doesn't need IR cab sims, they are very good for DI signal alone even with distortion pedals. I use IR cab plugin with Darkglass preamp for demo recording and practicing alone while it is compact setting with good distortion sound and preamp in the same package. Alone it is bit too harsh for distortion, maybe clean is better.

In my real amp setting I have ended up running following signal path: Darkglass distortion pedal - Sansamp RBI preamp (clean) - power amp - cab. Sansamp can feed FOH simultaneously but there is compromise when sound needs to be FOH friendly and bass cab friendly at the same time.

Edit: Somehow RBI "cab sim" doesn't affect negatively to signal going to my power amp and bass cab. Probably it is quite mild and operates mostly in extreme highs that is out of bass cab range anyway. BDDI v1 seem to have some kind of low cut too that is missing in RBI. I didn't like it as much as RBI.

 

[tech21nyc]

Thanks! Yeah, I was aware the Sansamp already ‘prepares’ the signal to a decent degree in terms of sending it to FOH, but I was curious if there was anything else I could invest in to enhance things. I know the VT BDDI has an additional speaker simulation switch that would cater for this, but as you say it’ll probably have a detrimental effect on the tone coming out of the amp/stage cab and is better suited for purely straight to the desk/recording interface.

Cheers again!

How is the Bass Driver set? If the Blend control is not set at 100% this means that any distortion used ahead of it will include some of those unfiltered "fizzy" frequencies that are generated. Also keep in mind that setting the Bass Driver so it sounds good with your amp may not be an ideal setting for the FOH. My suggestion would be to use the XLR out of the Bass Driver and set the tone for the FOH without your amp on. Once set, turn on the amp and use your amp's tone controls to get the best sound out of the amp.

 

[Fraser100]

The blend on the Sansamp is 100%. I've only used my current setup a handful of times as the Sansamp is a relatively new acquisition and I have suggested making use of the XLR in the way you suggest, although due to time constraints and grumpy/stressed engineers I haven't laboured the point and just made use of my amp head's DI to make things easier. That said, I think next time I'll insist on doing this and see how it goes. Thanks for your input!

 

[el murdoque]

Far be it from me to discourage your fx journey but Tech 21's mantra is:



If you cascade speaker sims you might find your signal sounding over-muffled. A Tech 21 Sansamp product straight to FOH = it's intended design. A full-on drive/dist/fuzz into a DSM speaker sim product to FOH = also a winner IMHO.

How is the Bass Driver set? If the Blend control is not set at 100% this means that any distortion used ahead of it will include some of those unfiltered "fizzy" frequencies that are generated. Also keep in mind that setting the Bass Driver so it sounds good with your amp may not be an ideal setting for the FOH. My suggestion would be to use the XLR out of the Bass Driver and set the tone for the FOH without your amp on. Once set, turn on the amp and use your amp's tone controls to get the best sound out of the amp.

Those two pretty much nail it.
The Sansamp BDDI has a baked in Speaker simulation that works fine, as long as you use it 100% wet.


Your results in stacking another sim on top can vary from great to disaster, depending on your settings and your tonal desires. If you have the chance, try it out for yourself and let us know!

 

[tech21nyc]

The Blend is a useful feature. It allows you to mix in the unaltered signal of your bass with the amp emulation. This was a common process in the recording studio and live (when engineers used to mic bass amps). The only time using the Blend can work against you is when you run a distortion pedal ahead of the SansAmp when going into a full range system. It is not an issue when using the SansAmp for distortion. The SansAmp portion of the circuit always goes through the speaker emulation regardless of the Blend setting.