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Double Bass Using King Moretone or American Standard basses in Bluegrass

Steve Swan

Steve Swan

Oct 12, 2004
1,327
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Burlingame, California
www.steveswandoublebasses.com
Disclosures
Retailer: Shen, Sun, older European
#1
We see Kay basses everywhere being used in Bluegrass music. Some Bluegrass players prefer the H.N. White made King Moretone and American Standard basses. Aside from their relative rarity and the significantly longer string lengths of the H.N. White basses, are there any downsides to using these instruments rather than Kay basses?
 
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#2
I hope not, since I'm about to sell a Kay and buy a modern-day equivalent of the AS - the New Standard Cleveland laminated. Or something very similar. I've done my research, talked with a number of knowledgeable people, and feel confident I'll really appreciate the differences. And I do mean differences, not pluses or minuses.

Here is one possible reason why Kay's have been so prevalent: when I decided to move from rhythm guitar to bass in a BG band I played in for many years, I looked for what other people were playing, and saw a lot of Kay basses. They were readily available and cheap. I didn't know squat about the instrument. Never had a lesson, or been around anyone who knew any more about basses than I did. People listened to my playing, told me it sounded like a bluegrass bass should, and I never took the time to see what else was available. I'm guessing that may have been the case for others.

Now that I've learned more about the instrument, and branched out into other music styles, I want something different. I've got a hybrid I use plugged in, and want to add a big-bodied instrument for acoustic jams. Rather than downsides, I think they may offer positive differences.
 
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#3
The number one reason why old Kays are so prominent is that they made more of them than all of the other basses combined. In a lot of acoustic settings, I prefer the voice of an old American Standard bass- the low end is wayyyy stronger, but there are a couple of clubs here in town that I play at regularly where my American Standard gets completely lost in the mix and my old battered Kay owns that room- probably because the low end is too much of a good thing, like when we pay a lot of $$$ for crazy deep cabinets and then use the high pass filter all night so your solos can be heard. I generally gig about 95% of the time with my old Kay because it can handle a lot higher volumes than the other with zero feedback issues and I regularly need a lot of amplified volume both on and off stage, and the bass is very consistent. I can root five all night long on an old American Standard 43 1/4" scale, but when I'm tearing it up playing swing and Django...my hands definitely notice it about 45 minutes into the first set and I can't play my best for the whole night, especially if it is a 3 gig weekend. Whoever designed the original American Standard bass was definitely a very tall man with huge hands.

The old Kings generally have a much better build quality and the materials are always top shelf, but I've never played one that excited me.....My all time favorite vintage plys are a battered old American Standard body with a new Condino neck; the same with the old Kays! Every New Standard bass that I have played that came out of Arnold Schnitzer's shop was an outstanding instrument.

No matter what bass you choose, they all have merits and weaknesses, so you learn to work around them.Whenever I take my fancy expensive carved bass out on gigs, nobody ever notices, yet when I take the beat to $#!& old Kay, like last night's gig, they all want to talk about it. Lots of people complain about old Kay neck joints, but the American Standard and King are almost identical and you never hear much about them because people like the thicker main body of the neck in hand. Factory spec Kay necks are way too thin for me, but I never play a spec one. Rebuilt and pimped out they are a joy to play. I like what Bobby said- rather than downsides, they all offer positive differences.

j.
www.condino.com
www.kaybassrepair.com
 
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#4
Steve Swan said:
We see Kay basses everywhere being used in Bluegrass music. Some Bluegrass players prefer the H.N. White made King Moretone and American Standard basses. Aside from their relative rarity and the significantly longer string lengths of the H.N. White basses, are there any downsides to using these instruments rather than Kay basses?
Click to expand...

Steve: Downside??? The King and American Standard basses are a huge improvement over the sound of the Kay.
When it comes to the upright bass, I believe sound quality trumps tradition or popularity every time.
 
#5
My take:

I started out playing on an Eberle German bass that played well and sounded great for bluegrass. I went through a few basses since then - trying carved basses, old basses, Kays, etc.

I never liked the Kay in sound or feel - never bought one. Tried a bunch but just couldn't get into them. Tried carved basses and was too nervous about damaging them in bar and coffee shop gigs. I also didn't need that much bass for bluegrass. I figured a solid plywood that's old and made for bluegrass would be a better choice.

I went out looking for a King or American Standard. I traded my carved bass to get a King Mortone. I love the tone and all ebony parts - And that the difference I learned between the two. King and AS are HN White as you said and I learned the Kings are of a little better quality. They have ebony parts where the American Standards are "hardwood" I played both when looking and they seemed liked tanks to me. very beefy! I preferred the King as that was the one I brought home. The problem I had was with the feel and not the sound. I loved the tone of the bass but couldn't get used to the feel of the bass. I also struggled adjusting to the 43" string length. I have a Meisel plywood similar to the Eberle I had. I now use that as the "meter stick" to compare other basses as far as feel goes. I can't find another bass that matches that great feel.

So, fast forward to today. I sold the King to fund my next bass. I'm going Upton. My thought is that the Upton is much closer in size and feel to my meisel but with all ebony parts. So hopefully I'll get the best of both worlds (fingers crossed).

Long story short, play what you want. Play what feels good and has the sound you like.
 
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#6
neddy: I agree.
To explain my previous post. I have had two Kay basses...a 1952 Swingmaster and a 1949 C-1. Then I bought a King. Now I have an Eberle.
The Kays can be OK( ie good thump) if they are set up properly but I did not like the thin necks. They were designed for students and were available and affordable back in the 40's and 50's.
The King had a much bigger sound and was made better. My factory-made Eberle has a great feel re the neck..... and a good, full sound.
I wish you well with your Upton and look forward to hearing your opinion on it once it is broken in. I visited their shop in Mystic, Connecticut recently and was very impressed with the care they took in making their basses.
 
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#8
Steve Swan said:
The passionate dedication by many for Kay basses to the exclusion of any other type or brand for playing bluegrass music is something that I have never understood. It almost feels like a cult experience.
Click to expand...
It used to be Kays - now its Chadwicks everywhere! :cool:
 
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#9
Steve Swan said:
The passionate dedication by many for Kay basses to the exclusion of any other type or brand for playing bluegrass music is something that I have never understood. It almost feels like a cult experience.
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Let's not forget the rest of the band: Martin D-series guitars, Gibson F5 mandos, Gibson flat-head banjos. . . I don't think the fiddle players have to have a particular "cult" Bluegrass instrument, but for all I know everyone has to own whatever Kenny Baker played.
 
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#11
Steve Swan said:
We see Kay basses everywhere being used in Bluegrass music. Some Bluegrass players prefer the H.N. White made King Moretone and American Standard basses. Aside from their relative rarity and the significantly longer string lengths of the H.N. White basses, are there any downsides to using these instruments rather than Kay basses?
Click to expand...

Agree, only downside is that King and AS basses are harder to come by. The upside to that is they fetch a little more cash, and the player has a genre approved instrument that is a little more unusual with a different sound than the more common Kay. I dig Kay Basses, I'm always happy to see people happy playing them, and the music sounding good because they are there together.
 
#12
Matt Bohn here on the central coast has been doing some great restorations of Moretones and I think they make great roots basses. The ones I've played have a sweet midrange but also that trademark low end the Kays don't often have. That said, once in a while a magic Kay comes along and I'm reminded of what all the fuss is about! I'm not a fan of the Kay neck profile though.
+1 on the Chadwicks, they're a godsend for traveling.
 
#15
Steve Swan said:
At the CBA Fathers Day Festival over the weekend, I counted two American Standards and one King Moretone on stage. I saw several more around the festival site, including once of each bright to my two bass workshops on Friday.
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Nice, Steve. Did you see the Kentucky Colonels reunion show?
 
#16
Jake, funny you should mention the Kentucky Colonials Reunion. Roger Bush (bassist Kentucky Colonels and Country Gazette) borrowed my '50 Kay C1 (which I bought from Steve Swan last year) to play at a rather amazing jam on Saturday night, after his bass suffered some sort of neck failure. Watching and hearing him play my bass, up close and personal, for an hour and half, was a real treat. Beautiful articulation, impeccable timing, and what drive! I should do a post about the reasons behind his non-traditional "baseball-bat" left hand technique, which I asked him about afterward.

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#17
LEUllman said:
Jake, funny you should mention the Kentucky Colonials Reunion. Roger Bush (bassist Kentucky Colonels and Country Gazette) borrowed my '50 Kay C1 (which I bought from Steve Swan last year) to play at a rather amazing jam on Saturday night, after his bass suffered some sort of neck failure. Watching and hearing him play my bass, up close and personal, for an hour and half, was a real treat. Beautiful articulation, impeccable timing, and what drive! I should do a post about the reasons behind his non-traditional "baseball-bat" left hand technique, which I asked him about afterward.

f335866553f7285766af2d1063e657a5.jpg
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Oh, that's wonderful!! Send more pix!

I ended up playing bass with those guys last year when Bill Bryson's bass had its button joint fail on the ride up in Bruce Johnson's SUV. I gave him our bass to play and when he couldn't adapt to the different bass he gave it back and said,"You play it!" :D
 
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#18
Jake,

I did catch the later set from the performer's area just in front of the stage. If you send me your email to the private message service here, I will send you a cell phone photo. All of the fellows in their 70s on stage played and sang quite well. Roland is a a little frail and had to sit in a chair.
 
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#19
Steve Swan said:
Jake,

I did catch the later set from the performer's area just in front of the stage. If you send me your email to the private message service here, I will send you a cell phone photo. All of the fellows in their 70s on stage played and sang quite well. Roland is a a little frail and had to sit in a chair.
Click to expand...
I was graced with the chance to play bass with Roland, Herb, Leroy and Patrick last year at Grass Valley. Roland definitely is showing his age when walking around but he was note perfect for a couple of hours, at least. To sing tenor with Mr. Pederson on 'Wait A Minute' was transcendent.

He was an icon to me when he was younger and he's an inspiration to me now.

Thanks, Steve, my email is: "mynamehere"@thebassspa.com
 
#20
Picking up on this …. from my experience it seems what the application might be on these bass makes and models. If outdoors on a festival gig any might work ok, depending on the sound man/micing technic/quality. But in a studio retrying to track a high quality recording (like Barry Bales, Mark Fain, etc.) one might choose a different make and/or model ? Or do you think it could be done with one in the same?
 

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