Using pentatonic scales

[Rev J]

Here is how I pentatonics. They are essentially dressed up triad arpeggios. Just add the second and sixth to a Major triad and you have a Major pentatonic scale. Add a fourth and seventh to a minor triad you have a minor pentatonic. I say learn them in all positions as it will open your ears up. In my opinion one of the greatest bass hooks of all time is "Low Rider" by War. All that bass line is is a G minor pentatonic starting on F. If you start to play around with all of the positions of a pentatonic scale you will see new possibilities.

C/S,
Rev J

 

[lonesome_loser]

Thank you for your reply. This gets to what I'm wondering. I guess what I'm saying is, for instance, I've played guitar for awhile and have to admit most, almost all, I do by way of notes (as opposed to chords) centers around the major and relative minors and their same position pentatonic (by omitting the right notes). In my playing there are exceptions: so-called long scales (from way down low on the sixth string to way up high on the first string or somewheres in between) , modes in a jazz context (mostly dorian and mixolydian (at which I suck horribly, btw )), and very guitaristic licks that climb up and down the neck. But really most of what I come across is centered around a major scale (first note is tonic note) and the relative minor.

I was also wondering if bassists tend to take more advantage of the whole neck than guitarists playing blues, rock, blues/rock, folk or bluegrass or something.

Do you think bassists are more theory oriented than guitarists? Am I opening a huge can of it by asking this? Hmmm, I wonder if this shouldn't be asked in a new thread....

QUOTE="bholder, post: 20049946, member: 18186"]I don't bother with pentatonic scales up and down the neck, I practice full scales instead, pentatonic is then easy when needed (helps to know where the other two notes are).[/QUOTE]

Why take a scale all the way up a neck?
On our neck the fret width is different as you go up/down. Gotta get used to playing at the 15th fret as well as the first fret. Yes, we all like C @ the 4th string 8th fret, but as mentioned there are three places to catch the C major scale between fret 1 and fret 15. You really need to be comfortable in each.

C @ the 3rd fret. C @ the 8th fret, and C @ the 15th fret.​

Yes you can find three places for most any scale. Why use more than one? Octave for one reason and then they are there if you need them. If you are playing from standard notation or fake chord with chord names - first position is easy. First position is the first 5 frets of your fretboard and every note you will ever need is there. If I am playing from note or chord name, that is where I play. If I'm playing patterns I go up the neck, for example: For the A Major scale I'd start my pattern at the 5th fret. D at the 10th fret and E at the 12th.

I understand you are just getting started, so yes get one place you are comfortable with and play there for now. However, be aware there is more....

Why do pentatonics?
They are just another tool in the tool box. As mentioned guitar guys use them all the time. I'll use them to fill out or change up a bass line - The Major Pentatonic scale has these notes; R-2-3-5-6 - now understand you do not have to use them in order, or even use all of them all the time. You've got three chord tones, for harmony (R-3-5) and two scale notes as passing or color notes (2 & 6). See what you can do with that.

R-2-3-5 | R-3-5-6| 8-6-5-3| the choices are endless.

Now if you are just running pentatonic scales up and down the fretboard as a training tool, R-2-3-5-6-8-6-5-3-2-R - in addition to your major and minor scales, I would rather see you getting some chord tones under your fingers. But, one thing at a time.

Good luck. And remember we call it playing music, because it is supposed to be fun.

Why take a scale all the way up a neck?
On our neck the fret width is different as you go up/down. Gotta get used to playing at the 15th fret as well as the first fret. Yes, we all like C @ the 4th string 8th fret, but as mentioned there are three places to catch the C major scale between fret 1 and fret 15. You really need to be comfortable in each.

C @ the 3rd fret. C @ the 8th fret, and C @ the 15th fret.​

Yes you can find three places for most any scale. Why use more than one? Octave for one reason and then they are there if you need them. If you are playing from standard notation or fake chord with chord names - first position is easy. First position is the first 5 frets of your fretboard and every note you will ever need is there. If I am playing from note or chord name, that is where I play. If I'm playing patterns I go up the neck, for example: For the A Major scale I'd start my pattern at the 5th fret. D at the 10th fret and E at the 12th.

I understand you are just getting started, so yes get one place you are comfortable with and play there for now. However, be aware there is more....

Why do pentatonics?
They are just another tool in the tool box. As mentioned guitar guys use them all the time. I'll use them to fill out or change up a bass line - The Major Pentatonic scale has these notes; R-2-3-5-6 - now understand you do not have to use them in order, or even use all of them all the time. You've got three chord tones, for harmony (R-3-5) and two scale notes as passing or color notes (2 & 6). See what you can do with that.

R-2-3-5 | R-3-5-6| 8-6-5-3| the choices are endless.

Now if you are just running pentatonic scales up and down the fretboard as a training tool, R-2-3-5-6-8-6-5-3-2-R - in addition to your major and minor scales, I would rather see you getting some chord tones under your fingers. But, one thing at a time.

Good luck. And remember we call it playing music, because it is supposed to be fun.

 

[lonesome_loser]

One of these days, I gotta learn more about modes, pentatonics, etc. .... but right now, I have too many gigs to spend much time on that. Although that sounds sarcastic (and probably is) it's the truth.

Exactly! Minus the gigs for me.

 

[InhumanResource]

Lot of good stuff in this string. I'm going to add a thing that helped me learn where the notes, that I will need, are on my fretboard. Little beyond where you are now, but, good look ahead information. The guys have given you some really good stuff in this string. Save it in your study binder. If you do not have one - start one.

You are on a note. It's probably a root as you are just getting good at pounding roots to the beat, and would like to add a 5 into your bass line, because you've read some where that this is done.

Question becomes; where is there a 5 on your fretboard? From where you are now a 5 will be up a string and toward the bridge two frets. Or down a string same fret. Yep, every time, that's where 5's live. NOW go do some Roots on the 1st beat and 5's on 3rd beat like you've read about. Feels good, right!

From where you are now.....
The 2 is same string and toward the bridge 2 frets.
The 3 is up a string and back toward the nut one fret. I catch the flat 3 (b3) right after the 2.
The 4 is up a string same fret.
The 5 is up a string and toward the bridge 2 frets, or if there is a string below what you are on - the 5 will down a string same fret.
The 6 is up two strings and back toward the nut one fret. Right over the 3.
The 7 is up two strings and toward the bridge one fret. Yes the flat 7 (b7) is right above the 4.
The 8 is up two strings and toward the bridge two frets. Right over the 5.

You may like to "see" the above in a graph format.

G~~|---2---|-------|---3---|---4---| 1st string
D~~|---6---|-------|---7---|---8---|
A~~|---3---|---4---|-------|---5---|
E~~|-------|---R---|-------|---2---|4th string​

Put that to memory and you can start using a walking bass line in no time. What's a walking bass line? One that moves the song forward. R-R-R-R does nothing to move the song, but, add the 5 (R-5-) and you've got some movement. Movement is good. Songs in 4/4 time; and there is a Cmaj7 chord coming up -- R-3-5-7 are the notes in a Cmaj7 chord so, using a bass line of the R-3-5-7 notes of the Cmaj7 chord you've harmonized the chord and moved the song forward in the song. Two good things that have taken you to another level. How's the view up there?

Some other good stuff. Want the same note up toward the nut. Go up a string and toward the nut five frets. Bingo. Want the same note toward the bridge. Go down a string and toward the bridge 5 frets. Bingo again.

Of course you gotta think in scale degree numbers, 1-3-5-7, but, sooner or later you will be doing both A, B, C's and 1, 2, 3's.

Happy trails.

It's nice to have access to all that with one hand position. I found that incorporating a shift so that my first finger is on ii or V gives a lot of access and "mental practice" to the next register. One more shift while practicing scales and you have 2 octaves completely. This fingering is handy and practical for most circumstances, but as a practice measure I got a lot of benefit from burning two octaves into my head so I didn't "blank" mentally when improvising something up around the 11th.

 

[davidhilton]

For anyone saying just learn major and minor scales instead, i personally don't agree. You should learn all scales and all modes in all keys and all positions eventually. It is one thing to think in c major and a different thing to think in d dorian scale the same way it is different to think in c major pentatonic. In all three cases, the scales are derived from the same core but their application differs. Sure if you know the major scale you'll known where all seven notes are but will you instincively know where the notes you shouldn't play are if you're playing pentatonic or will you have to think about it?
That way when your in a rehearsal environment and someone asks you to do smth in pentatonic for some reason or tou think that a pentatonic fits in a certain position you won't hesitate by considering which notes of the major scale to leave out. Bottom line is cmajor scale is different than c major pentatonic, you should know both in all positions. Just my opinion

Wow, I'm with you man, I totally disagree with just learning your major and minor scales instead. There's an incredibly vast amount of pentatonic based lines that aren't just the minor or the major pentatonic payed up and down. To start with you have 5 different sound shapes starting on all the scale degrees of the pentatonic scale. Plus you have tons of intervalic shapes that take you far far away from the maj pent riff of the Motown classic "My Girl". Also There's different pentatonic shapes than just the well know maj and minor pentatonic. If anybody wants to check out the real deal on pentatonics check out Gerry Bergonzi's Pentatonic book, part of the his, Inside Improvisation Series. You'll be surprised.
https://www.amazon.com/Advance-Bergonzi-Pentatonics-Inside-Improvisation/dp/B0006FH3P4
P.s. I felt guilty posting a link to the free pdf version of this book, but FYI, it's out there.
www.basslessonslosangeles.com

 

[Spin Doctor]

If anybody wants to check out the real deal on pentatonics check out Gerry Bergonzi's Pentatonic book, part of the his, Inside Improvisation Series. You'll be surprised.

I bought this book a few days ago, when the pentatonic topic came up in some other thread. I can play pentatonics from the lowest note to the highest and use them to navigate the fretboard (this took a good while to get down), but I know there's something else I can learn about them.

I'm pretty sure Gary Willis has an approach to pentatonics that's kinda different than the norm, but I can't remember where I saw that info.

 

[MalcolmAmos]

......I can play pentatonics from the lowest note to the highest and use them to navigate the fretboard (this took a good while to get down), but I know there's something else I can learn about them.

Can not talk for Gary. But look at it this way.

We have chord tones, and non chord tones. Dougggah. No keep reading. Chord tones of the active chord help harmonize the melody line. That's a good thing. Non chord tones used correctly let us add interest and melody into our bass lines. That's a good thing.

The song writer placed a chord where it is in the song so the notes of that chord share some of the same notes as the melody that is happening - while the chord is active. It's the sharing of notes that give us harmony. Harmony lets the melody line (treble clef) and the accompaniment line (bass clef) sound good together. That was a really big WOW for me and explained a whole lot of things.

So if we play some of the chord's notes we stand a pretty good chance of harmonizing the active melody, thus sound good. That's why the old guys tell us to follow the chord progression and play notes of the active chord.

A pentatonic scale has three chord tone notes and two safe passing or color notes. For example; R-2-3-5-6 are the note in a major pentatonic scale. The R-3-5 are chord tone notes and are going to be safe harmony notes and the 2 & 6 are color or passing notes, should you need them.

The minor pentatonic scale also has three chord tones and two passing notes. This time the notes are the R-b3-4-5 b7. Your R-b3-5 are your chord tones of a minor chord. and the 4 and b7 are you non chord tone notes. Well the b7 is also used in m7 chords so it's also a chord tone. R-2-3-5-6 for major pentatonic and R-b3-4-5-b7 for the minor pentatonic.

OK the chord tones harmonize - got that. What do the non chord tones do? First we can use pentatonic notes in our bass line or our melody line. Lets look at our bass line first.

How about adding some interest. How about adding something new into the bass line. Use pentatonic scale as little 5 note scales. Think of them as being little 5 note scale that probably are going to sound good any way you use them. No not in order and it is not necessary you use all 5 in each phrase, bass line, cadence, etc. If the time signature for this song is 4/4 - four quarter notes or rests are going to fit into a measure really well. If you are playing over a major chord progression a major pentatonic is what you use. So, if major, a bass line of R-3-5-8 is a given. R-3-5-6 works. R-3-2-6 will also. And you do not have to start each bass line with the root, we do get paid to call attention to the root, but a 2-5-R-8 fits in there also.

Then when the guys give you a lead break and you are expected to provide 24 bars of melody the pentatonic scale is there for your use. Three close notes and then a leap of at least a 3rd normally work. What you do after the leap gets interesting.... Again major pentatonic over major chords, minor pentatonic over minor chords.

You can use the Key (tonic) pentatonic for your entire solo, or you could change the pentatonic for each chord as it comes active. All kind of neat things you can do with pentatonic scales.

Experiment. See what works best for you. Backing tracks that show the chord names are a great play-a-long tool.

Dirt simple use; add the non chord tones into your normal bass lines first just to get a feel. R-5-8-6. R-3-6-8. Experiment. Don't worry about getting a lead break solo, the guitar guy has already got this covered and will make your life miserable if you cut into his solo time. Let them have the solo and you and the drummer keep the band grooving.

 

[jallenbass]

Lead Guitar players live on Pentatonic scales, but this is a Bass forum so...

This fellow may disagree with you:

 

[BAG]

Do you think bassists are more theory oriented than guitarists?

I believe that decent bass players are more theory orientated that decent guitarists. I know that I learned very little theory beyond the pentatonic scales in 30 years of guitar playing. You can get away with knowing simple chord shapes on guitar and play songs decently, and even solo quite will with just the pentatonic scale.

I learned much more theory in the first 6 months of bass playing than in that preceding 30 years and now, after a bit over three years of bass playing, I continue to learn more and more.

I think it is due to playing chords, lines etc one note at a time that forces you to understand more what goes into making up chords and harmony. I would think that other one-note-at-a-time instruments would be similar such as brass, woodwind etc.

 

[MalcolmAmos]

Agree with Bag's post. As an ole rhythm guitar player once I had my 7 major chord fingerings down it was follow the chord progression, hit the changes dead on, join in on the vocals during the chorus and smile a lot. I read the chord from the left to the right and ignored all the fancy stuff (Bm7b5) would get a sloppy B as Bm7b5 chords do not come up that much in ole time country. In Country, and especially with old time country, if there is a minor chord you can ignore it as being just one of those minor things - and get by. So my 7 fingerings kept me in THE BAND.

All I really needed to know is when they said the next one is in G, the C and D would be coming up. To help with that I glued the circle on my guitar neck and used that to tell me the I-IV-V's.

Just remembered something; lot of the old guys just played everything in G and use a capo to put them in the right key. This way they only have to know the fingering on three chords.

In most good ole boy country bands there is at least one more rhythm guitar and I'd watch his fingering and change chords when he did. I just assumed he know what he was doing.

Now that will let you function in a good ole boy country band, and a lot never dig any deeper than that.

Your post brought back fond memories of the good ole days.

 

[Lobster11]

Here's a recent lesson from Scott Devine about how to play/practice pentatonic scales up and down the neck using five different positions or patterns:



The actual lesson starts at the 6:00 mark.