Using Stain Instead of Paint

[greekorican]

I have a beat up MIM Jazz Bass that I got for 200 bucks in June. The neck is warped, so I'm ordering a new one from Mighty Mite. I'd like to refinish the body too. The finish is cracked, and I want to fix the screw holes for the strap buttons. The previous owner drilled not only 1, but 3 holes that were too large for a screw. When I bought this, the strap button was glued in, but I still pulled it out by hand.

My dad's a carpenter. We've got oodles of wood stain in the garage. He's also got several different types of clear coats. I also have an airbrush, I'm pretty well equipped for this project. If I stain the body instead of painting it, do I still have to fill the grain, and put a sand and sealer coat on it? My idea is to just stain it, and throw a clear coat on it (They do that to furniture, and it looks good). It sounds almost too simple, is there anything wrong with this approach?

I want this instrument to look classy. Finishes that let you see the wood grain is the epitome of classy. Right now the finish is 3 tone sunburst (also very classy). I think sunburst with more woodgrain would look great. I'm wondering if a sunburst is possible with stain, I think it would be difficult because the colors are going to bleed into each other. Best case scenario; the color bleeds perfectly so that each color progresses smoothly into the other. I'm also gonna have to see how the wood looks after I strip it, it might not be very pretty. Somehow I don't think it will work this smoothly, but I'm going to give it a shot on some scrap wood. If I can't make it look good on some scrap wood, I'll just go with 1 color. Any thoughts on my sunburst method?

And finally, I need some opinions on color, both stain and pickguard. I am getting a maple neck, so factor that in too. If I go the sunburst route, I'll probably replace the outer black with brown. I think brown will bleed into the red smoother than black would (is there such a thing as black stain?). I'm thinking a black pickguard. How does it sound?

 

[Deathblade Eric]

In principle it should work. There are a few pitfalls with stain though...

It will often seem to highlight any filled areas - filler is less absorbent than wood & will often show up as a lighter patch.

Some stains look awful on some woods (find a piece of scrap pine & some mahogany stain & you'll get the drift), so your colour choices may be restricted by the timber.

Staining on bare wood is non-reversible AFAIK except with a sander.

You have an airbrush - how big? If it's the graphic art/hobbyist type it's likely to be too small for the job, unless you can get a really wide spray pattern - even then you may find you have to thin any coating so much you end up applying a bazillion coats (also if you rely on cans of airbrush propellant rather than a compressor you may/will find that a patchy job will result as the pressure from a can isn't very constant).

Personally I'd seal the body with clear coat & flat it back so's the grain is filled - this will take an age, but makes any future corrections a whole heap easier. Then mix stain & clearcoat to make a glaze (you don't need much stain), apply this gradually as a series of thin coats. If it goes pear-shaped, let it dry & cut it back to your clear layer & have another go.

Brown>>Red ought to work - & if the stains you have are intermixable it should be possible to make a range of "stepped" glazes so that the transitions aren't obvious.

Black stain does exist - it's Ebony (Jacobean Oak is pretty dark as well) - & if you're using water-based lacquers, Indian Ink ought to work.

Caveat: I'm not a luthier, but have a background in Airbrush Art, Traditional Signwriting, Calligraphy & I [DEL]muck about with old railway rolling stock as a hobby[/DEL] dabble in antique furniture restoration, so take most of the above as opinion & not fact.

Pete.

 

[greekorican]

My dad got this airbrush to paint his truck, so its big enough to do the job, but I'm considering just using a brush instead of the airbrush. Less stuff to set up and clean up, and will make a whole lot less of a mess, as I'm not very good with an air brush. I don't think it will look any different from using an airbrush either.

I just remembered that my dad has some sign masking tape, it comes in sheets. I could make 2 templates for the sunburst, and the masking tape will protect the lighter stained colors. Hopefully the darker stain will bleed nice and evenly underneath the masking tape, but who knows. Maybe stain isn't quite as absorbent as I think it is.

One more question/concern. Should I stain the entire body yellow, mask the yellow and spray the rest red, and then mask the red/yellow and finish off with black? I'm wondering if the red is going to become orange if I stain everything yellow first. This wouldn't be a problem with paint, because darker paint is just sitting on top of the lighter paint, not blending with it. Am I making sense?

 

[stevetx19]

a while back someone posted a video of how to rub in a stained sunburst; it was green. i'll look around to see if i can find it.

 

[guitar ed]

Hi Greek,

You might want to do some checking, but I suspect that the body you have is alder. If that is the case, it probably won't stain real well, as alder does not usually have a good grain.

To repeat, and expand on, earlier comments. A body that has had holes filled, and stuff like that, will show the holes if you stain directly on the body. Also, even wood in good shape will not absorb stains & dyes evenly.

Which is why guitar colors are mixed into the finish. What the mgfrs do is spray a clear coat, then the color coats, then another clear coat. That is the only way to guarantee that the body/paint/color/finish will look good.

Have fun.

edg

 

[Rocky McD]

I'm not trying to be a smart a** but how did your dad paint his truck with a airbrush?
The airbrush would work good for you on a burst finish, by using it on the edges only.
Rocky

 

[greekorican]

I'm not trying to be a smart a** but how did your dad paint his truck with a airbrush?
The airbrush would work good for you on a burst finish, by using it on the edges only.
Rocky

LOL it doesn't look very good. My dad has a Chevy Silverado 2500HD, its a beast. With an extended cab and 8 foot bed, it takes alot of man to drive a truck this long. He gave his truck to valet parking, and the guy was driving it like a car, took a turn way to sharp and got the driver door with a pole. The valet insurance covered it, and payed my dad cash. Instead of taking it to a body shop, my dad pulled the dent, got the correct color paint, and repainted it. He actually saved alot of money, and it doesn't look that bad. For a first try at body work, it turned out pretty well.

BTW, any clue what kind of finish is on this MIM Jazz? My dad says it looks like epoxy, but that doesn't sound possible. He's afraid that I'll ruin it by stripping it. He's also saying that for all the work of stripping it and filling the holes, I should just build a new body. We've got a lot of hawthorne in the garage thats got a really nice grain to it. Hawthorn is a dense wood, which could be a good thing or a bad thing. I like dead flatwounds, but there are times where I wish it had a little more snap. Maybe I'd like the tone of a denser wood, or maybe I should just buy some ash/alder.

I'm out of control. I went from buying an SX for just the neck and body, to buying a replacement neck, to replacement neck and refinish the body. Looks like I'm coming out of this with a whole new custom bass

 

[Deathblade Eric]

My dad got this airbrush to paint his truck, so its big enough to do the job, but I'm considering just using a brush instead of the airbrush. Less stuff to set up and clean up, and will make a whole lot less of a mess, as I'm not very good with an air brush. I don't think it will look any different from using an airbrush either.

If it's sprayed a truck, it's probably fine, but... trust me on this... brush blending/stippling is a whole Dark Art of its own (& one I've never mastered - when I have to do fancy shaded lettering I get the Badger out & spray it), & it never looks as good as a nice spray gradient (IMO). Brush blending also relies on a slow-drying finish - I'm not saying it can't be done with nitro or poly, but you'd have to go like the clappers.

I just remembered that my dad has some sign masking tape, it comes in sheets. I could make 2 templates for the sunburst, and the masking tape will protect the lighter stained colors. Hopefully the darker stain will bleed nice and evenly underneath the masking tape, but who knows. Maybe stain isn't quite as absorbent as I think it is.

If the masking is self-adhesive, it'll be designed to prevent bleed - that'd give you distinct hard-edged bands of colour. A "loose mask" that allows the spray to blow under would be better, but this can still create a hard transition. Oh, & the basic rule of paint bleed is that it will NEVER happen evenly, consistently, or in a place that won't show! Stain is fantastic at bleeding every which way it damn well wants as well.

One more question/concern. Should I stain the entire body yellow, mask the yellow and spray the rest red, and then mask the red/yellow and finish off with black? I'm wondering if the red is going to become orange if I stain everything yellow first. This wouldn't be a problem with paint, because darker paint is just sitting on top of the lighter paint, not blending with it. Am I making sense?

Yup. Light to Dark, Centre to Edge. The red will go a little orange, but if you build it up more towards the edge it'll become stronger & richer - besides orange is a good transition between the yellow & red. You shouldn't need masks - except on your face. Go easy on the black, you'll need waaay less than you think.

Here's a good starting point:



Looks easy, & after practice it is (relatively). See what your local lending library has on the subject of Airbrushing as well - the basic techniques are the same whether you're doing Fine Art or spraying an Oil Tanker.

Stiff learning curve, but one worth scaling - have fun.

Pete.

 

[greekorican]

I took a trip to Wood World today (amazing selection, anyone who lives in chicago should check it out.) I looked at some ash, and some mahogany, but it wasn't jumping out at me. The grain wasn't anything spectacular. Then I saw some walnut, the color and grain is absolutely beautiful. I came home and told my dad what I found, even he's excited for this project. According to him, walnut is the Caddilac of wood. How is walnut as far as tone. I've read that the tone can get a little nasal-y, I see high end basses built from walnut (I'm pretty sure I've seen walnut Spectors and Warwicks).

I was thinking a dark red stain, but my dad says its a sin to stain walnut. We grabbed a sample piece of walnut, threw some red stain on it, as well as some linseed oil (think old school walnut gun stock finishes). The red looks good, but the linseed oil looks amazing after only 1 coat. Linseed oil just darkens the wood a little, makes the grain jump right out, and is actually looks redder than the red stain. I also tried some epoxy finish we had, which also looks excellent. At this point I think I'm going with the clear epoxy.

I think I'm just going to scratch the Sunburst finish. I had a feeling that stain bleeding perfectly even under masking was too much to hope for. I'm also no good with an airbrush, unless its a solid color. I don't think sunburst would come out well on walnut anyway.