Double Bass Velvet Garbos double bass strings megathread part I

[godoze]

I still love the 180's. With my shoulder in the shape that it is in they feel even better. I am thinking of trying a gut g and d and wrapped a and e to see if they feel better than the velvets.

Remeber Ken, the velvets I gave you were the "old" formula. The new formula is much different.

 

[godoze]

Pete G, yes the y do feel different than any other string IMO. It too kme a week or two to get used to the feel.

 

[Pete G]

I forgot to mention this: I had been using Pop's on my old mixed set. Again, while I'm only a few hours into my 180 experiment, I'm beginning to wonder whether some other rosin wouldn't be better suited to this string. I'm finding that with the bowing style these strings seem to like (lighter and faster) the Pops rosin may be too sticky. Tonight I'm going to try my old cake of Nyman's to see if that makes a difference.

 

[godoze]

rosin IS an issue. I had pops when i first got mine (I hate pops) and i switched to Carllson.

 

[Pete G]

I really like Pop's with normal metal strings, and I've tried everything else.

But for these strings, I'm starting from scratch. So to speak...

 

[Monte]

I really like Pop's with normal metal strings, and I've tried everything else.

But for these strings, I'm starting from scratch. So to speak...

Pete, I'm using Kolstein Duo Pack right now. I think really soft rosin might not be best for these strings, IMHO.

I answered you on the 2xbasslist, but I'll reiterate that these strings really need 2 weeks to settle in. Approaching one year and still loving them.

For Ken:
These strings have better, faster bow response as well as a bigger fundemental than any string I have used.

The list for the last 5 or 6 years on my bass:

Helicore Orchestra
Spirocore Orchestra
Spirocore Weich
Spirocore Solo
Corelli 370 TX
Pirastro Obligato
Pirastro Jazzer
Pirastro Oliv (D & G)
Pirastro Eudoxa
Kolstein Heritage
Velvet 360
Velvet 180 (original)

I've used others on other basses (like the Flexocor originals).

Monte

 

[Pete G]

Monte, I'm still not sure we're talking about the same strings. You mentioned on the other list that you were playing the Compass 180 SUIT. That's not the new version of the string.

 

[Monte]

Monte, I'm still not sure we're talking about the same strings. You mentioned on the other list that you were playing the Compass 180 SUIT. That's not the new version of the string.

Yes it is. There is some confusion (GOODNESS I wish they had just changed the darn name.

The SUIT and Orchestra are both new (the SUIT came out first) and have to be tied. The old version has gold loops at the tailpiece end. I used to use them, and they were horrible for bowing.

For those not on 2xbasslist, here is the difference.

SUIT = Suitable for orchestral or solo tuning. A little stretchier, they can be tuned up a whole tone, without being floppy at orchestral pitch (like most solo strings).

The standard tune set has a red top..

Monte

 

[Monte]

Oh yeah, I saved this from Lou Roten:

There are four formulations of compàs 180®: (The last design tweaking of
the 180's I'm told)

- standard tuned set (27 kg, red top) for orchestral playing.
Newly introduced

- standard/solo set (24 kg, black top) can be tuned in standard pitch and
solo (this is the SUIT set)
The SUIT was the formulation introduced about a year or so ago to be used
in both tunings.

- solo set for solo tuning only

- fifths tuning ('Red Mitchell' tuning)

Lou

 

[Adrian Cho]

I remember Lou's post and I was confused (and had just tried the new 180s). Note what it says in the Lemur catalogue:

Velvet now offers Compas 180 in 2 formulations. The ‘old Compas 180’ that you used before is
now called Compas 180 SUIT, because it is ‘suitable’ for orchestra or solo tuning.

The ‘New’ Compas 180 is formulated to be a higher tension string for orchestra tuning only.

 

[Pete G]

Those people could use some serious marketing - consumer communications help.

I dunno why, but it makes me think about the observations that Harry Lime makes about Switzerland in the ferris wheel towards the end of "The Third Man."

 

[godoze]

I read the same thing that Adrian did in the Lemur cat.

 

[Monte]

I read the same thing that Adrian did in the Lemur cat.

Lemur is wrong.

SUIT came out after the old 180's. I've used both and they are completely different.

My guess is that Lemur still has some old stock they are trying to sell off. The old one's were also able to be played in Solo or orchestral tuning.

If given the choice, I'll believe Lou Roten, former US Schertler Rep and current dealer over something in anyone's catalog.

Monte

 

[FidgetStone]

Boy am I confused on the different versions of the180s. I thought I had it figured out from earlier posts and ordered the "standard" new formula orchestral strings from Quinn. The package does not definitively indicate which version they are. They are red at the bottom and black at the top along with small color patch for red = G, Green = D, blue = A and black = E. According to the information earlier in this post, what I have is the SUIT set. I just e-mailed Velvet directly for clarification.

Anyway . . . I installed my new 180's Sunday night and they are finally stretching a lot less. Keep in mind that they are still too new to be broken in and the following thoughts are my INITIAL impression coming from well-worn (9 months old) Obligatos.

The pizz tone is much better than I anticipated from an orchestral string. Pizz is almost as nice as new Obligatos. There is only slightly less sustain overall and there is a little less growl on the E. They bow at least somewhat better than Obligatos and have a more pure tone under the bow. The improved ease of bowing is most noticeable on the A & E. That being said, my bowing chops are horrible and these strings are unable to magically make my poor technique sound sweet.

Technique aside, should I expect them to become a little less screech prone after they break in?

So far I give them high marks and I will post more impressions as they break in. Also, I will post how Velvet reply’s to my "what stings do I have" question.

 

[Monte]

Boy am I confused on the different versions of the180s. I thought I had it figured out from earlier posts and ordered the "standard" new formula orchestral strings from Quinn. The package does not definitively indicate which version they are. They are red at the bottom and black at the top along with small color patch for red = G, Green = D, blue = A and black = E. According to the information earlier in this post, what I have is the SUIT set.

No, the red, as I state in Lou's e-mail is the standard set.

SUIT is black on both ends. Red on the end is standard.

Monte

 

[Adrian Cho]

The downsides of these strings - they are quite thin which some people don't like (me for one) and the limit at which they choke up when you really dig in, is a lot lower than it is for gut. If you want to play a lot of stuff without the amp for example, these things probably won't work for you. And to me, they still don't sound close enough to gut so if that's the only sound you want then go with the real deal.

 

[Monte]

The downsides of these strings - they are quite thin which some people don't like (me for one) and the limit at which they choke up when you really dig in, is a lot lower than it is for gut. If you want to play a lot of stuff without the amp for example, these things probably won't work for you. And to me, they still don't sound close enough to gut so if that's the only sound you want then go with the real deal.

Gotta complete disagree with this. They don't choke up at all for me. That is what I love about the pizz, is they give out what you put into them, giving a lot of snap. The only difference I feel is that I can't pull the D string all the way to the E string like really low tension gut. They respond at least as well as the Eudoxas I used to have, and maybe a little better.

Played the first set with a septet last Friday completely acoustic when getting lost in Dallas got me to the gig so late that I didn't have time to set up. Everyone could hear me, in a big ballroom at a country club. Never even broke out the amp. Part of that is technique and my big ass (literally) bass, but the strings certainly don't preclude acoustic gigs.

While they are thinner than the big Chordas, calling them thin is not quite right either. They are no thinner than Obligatos, and are about the same as the Kolstein Heritage's that are on my old Juzek. Someone coming from Spirocore Weichs or Corelli's is going to be in for a shock if you call them thin.

To each his own. I find that they have more clarity and pitch definition than the gut I was using without sacrificing a big fundamental. They don't sound or feel like steel, and they are more stable tuning than gut. Add on the fact that they bow like a dream and at least for me, they are really ideal.

Monte

 

[Monte]

Over the past year I've answered more questions about these strings than I can count. Hopefully, this will clear some things up.

There once were made some strings called Velvet Compàs 180 strings. These were the arco counterpart of the Compàs 360 strings. This formulation of the Velvet Compàs was made up until around 2002, and many of these still are around being sold.

It got confusing when Velvet stopped production on the Compàs 180 strings to make a more arco friendly version. They re-released the strings under the same name, despite the fact that they are completely different strings.

THE NEW Velvet Compàs 180 strings:
From Lou Roten
There are four formulations of compàs 180®: (The last design tweaking of
the 180's I'm told)

- standard tuned set (27 kg, red top) for orchestral playing.
Newly introduced

- standard/solo set (24 kg, black top) can be tuned in standard pitch and
solo (this is the SUIT set)
The SUIT was the formulation introduced about a year or so ago to be used
in both tunings.

- solo set for solo tuning only

- fifths tuning ('Red Mitchell' tuning)

To confuse matters further, a rumor has gone around the Velvet Compàs 180 SUIT strings are the old formulation. This is not true, although the old formulation was a standard/ solo tuning set.

HOW TO KNOW IF YOU HAVE THE OLD SET:
The old set can be easily determined by gold loop ends at the tailpiece. They also were copper/ aluminum wound (a little rough), and could leave oxidization on your hands. All of the new sets are attached in a completely different way, and are just straight string on both ends, and need to be tied on the tailpiece end.

Hope this clears some things up.

Monte

 

[Monte]

Also I forgot to mention this from Lou Roten, who was the U.S. Schertler / Velvet rep at the time the old Velvet 180's were taken off the market:

Velvet concluded that the original 180's did not meet the requirements set by Velvet themselves, but their focus was first on producing the anima and garbo for jazz players , then finally redesigning the 180's, the latter taking about 2 years and several internal iterations. They told me to destroy my existing stock of 180's.

Lou


That ought to tell you that whatever Velvet's shortcomings in marketing, they truly cared about the end product being good. It is too bad there are a few string shops still trying to sell off the old ones that were so bad that Velvet asked them to be destroyed.

I also remember that when they sent me the test set, that 2 year process included lots of feedback and revision on the advice of some heavy classical only cats.

Monte

 

[Adrian Cho]

What I'm saying is that the limit for those strings is lower than it is for gut. No doubt about it. I'm not saying you can't play acoustic with them, just that they are not as loud as gut and when you start to really dig into them, the point at which the tone suffers, is lower than it is for gut strings. To me that's no surprise as there is less mass than the typical gut string. I agree they are not much thinner than Obligatos, Spiros, etc. but I was comparing them to Olivs, Eudoxas, Chordas, etc.

And yes your bass is huge Monte so I think that's definitely one factor in your being to able play acoustically with them in such a situation as you've described.