Double Bass Venting

[TroyK]

Just feel like being petty for a minute. Had a nice gig with a nice kid and I don't mean to gripe about it, but here goes.

First of all, I don't want to get into the details of what it was or who it was with because that's not what I want to vent about. It was a kind of formal jazz performance in a small theatre. The program was a bit too arranged for my personal taste, but I was just hired to play and that's the gig, so I won't complain about that. It was one of those things where they money seemed good, but then the time started getting more out of hand and demands started rising and my hourly rate started shrinking dramatically, but again, I'm responsible for managing that and I liked this guy and wanted to be supportive. I also referred a drummer into it who I respect so I tried to keep a stiff upper lip and keep it good and positive to keep that relationship in tact for myself when things got a little less than fun.

We rehearsed in this little auditorium a few times and the sound was good with my EA Wizzy 200, small drum kit, and the guitar player. There were songs interspersed that included piano, horns and singers, but mostly it was just guitar, drums and me.

So, when we got there for the show, there was a sound guy and I tend to not like sound guys all that much. If they aren't used to doing jazz, I really don't like them. If they aren't used to doublebass, then I really don't want to deal with them. So, there are monitors everywhere and he says "do you want a mic or a DI" and I looked at the leader and said "do you feel like we need either?" Hoping he would say “no”, of course.

He's fairly inexperienced and didn't, so the sound guy, chose mic. I said, “you know, if you need something for the monitors, let's go with a DI, you can leave it down and then just bring it up if anyone asks, but we've rehearsed in here and I think we'll be fine, I've got a good amp and this is a nice room.” He said, “No, a mic is much better, the DI will sound terrible, you don't want that, let's do both.” We started to kind of fight about it, but I didn't want to fight at someone else's gig, so I just said to the leader, calmly: “It's whatever you want man, I thought we sounded good in here the way we were, if you want some sound support, then that's cool, but I have to worry about moving around if there's a mic and feedback and we didn't rehearse that way. I just want you to be comfortable."

So, I went to the can and came back and there was a mic and a DI. The mic was set up on the bass side of my bridge, so I moved it over to the treble side, over the soundpost. The sound guy jumped on me and said "I need for you to put that back where it was!" So, you can see where my mood is going. I'm no expert, you guys correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't think it works that way, so I very politely explained what I think I know about mic’ing double bass, which I had already stated I would rather not have been doing for a live show in a small-ass theatre anyway, but the guy was a tool, so he started moving me away from the drummer to avoid bleed since I refused to put the mic over the bass bar. I like being near the drummer to lock in. Do you want us to play well or do you want the sound guy to mix well?

So we sound check and he starts saying things like "Can you roll off a little bit at 250?" After a bit of this, I was very calm with him and said, "if you want to come down here and tune my eq you're welcome to." He said "No, I'd just like for you to bump at ____ and roll off ______" I turned around and pretended to fiddle, played another song and then said "How's that?" and he said "Better, but..." :-/

I hate sound guys for live shows, especially when they are not necessary, which he wasn't for this one.

There was some other stuff with this gig that was basically over produced. And some other pet peeves of mine, like singers insisting on counting tunes in and me letting them. (I wasn't the leader and I was trying to be a good, polite sideman) Basically this is a really good guy who is fairly inexperienced and who (I feel) fairly over-engineered what was a important show to him. I feel bad because I feel like if I had been less prepared, I would have played better. We had some good moments and it wasn't a bad show, but there were some rough spots and the 3 weeks of prep for it took a lot of fun and musicality out of it, which I think came out on stage. The weasely sound guy was just the personification of that experience to a degree. Still, I wish that I was enough of a pro that it didn't matter, that no matter what I could just play whatever I needed to under any circumstances from start to finish. As it was, I played 2/3 of a very good show.

Generally 2007 was largely, for me about trying to figure out where I want to fit into Seattle as a jazz musician and who I do and don't want to play with (and get healthy, which is a different discussion). I turned down a lot of gigs and didn't regret taking as many as I did last year. I don't exactly regret taking this one, but I regret not handling it better. I know that there will always be stuff like this on gigs and I need to not let it effect me. I probably also need to find the right balance of taking control and being cooperative. I may have erred too far on the side of being polite this time.

Just sharing really, but certainly interested in feedback as well.

Troy

 

[Arojekt]

I hate sound guys for live shows, especially when they are not necessary, which he wasn't for this one.

Amen. Brother, you're not alone.

--Arojekt.

 

[Marcus Johnson]

Sound men who understand what to do with DB are a rare breed these days. I'm fortunate to have a few here who know what's happening, but many others are not open to being educated by us lowly bassists.

 

[fenderhutz]

Why couldn't you have just listened to me and tried my suggestions?

Geesh.

 

[Chrix]

The whole live sound thing is such a tricky art in so many ways. I tend to have the same general feelings that you have. However, I've had enough good friends that have done good to really great live sound to know how much hell they tend to go through dealing with us horrible musicians. While they don't realize that they're futzing with the sound we know we should be getting, we tend not to remember all the work that it does take to get a good live sound. That being said, of course, that it seemed fairly unnecessary to even have it in this case, so I completely know how you feel on this particular instance.

I've been lucky that the guy that I tend to deal with most now-a-days is also a bassist, and while he doesn't play upright, he's got a better idea than most sound guys as to how to deal with an upright. But other than him, I've taken to being a little more direct with sound guys than you might have been on this gig. And I think you can do it without seeming like you're trying to take over someone else's gig or not being a good, well-behaved sideman. I'm sure if you'd told the leader your feelings as opposed to asking him what he wanted, he might have let it be and let you deal with the sound guy. But situations like these are tough. Just don't be afraid to be stern, but not to the point of being an a__hole...

 

[TroyK]

Yeah, we're kind of masters of passive aggressive out here. I actually haven't even lived out here that long, but it's rubbed off on me. The sound was one piece of it, there were other lines I should have drawn and a few that I did, come to think of it.

Good advice, though. I regret not being more direct on a number of fronts. I could have done so in most cases without being dicky. Even if I came off a bit of a jerk, I can always say to the guy who hired me afterwards "hey sorry if I got a little testy earlier, I was concerned that I was not going to be able to deliver my best stuff for you if I didn't get that point across and I was having trouble in the moment."

Anyway, I am right that you mic the soundpost and not the bass bar, right?

-tk

 

[M Ramsey]

If you were satisfied with amp souind, I would have told him he could mike the amp and be done with it. I've done that several times in festivals and in nice listening rooms when I've encountered soundmen I do not know.

I used to carry a Shure Beta 52 and place it on their stand, mic the amp as I wanted and let them have it. That way, I adjust the amp the way I want it and they can do with it what ever thay want. If he was so needed, why wasn't the soundman at all the practice sessons?

I don't think you were being unreasonable. It's funny, the player with the biggest instrument (which is omnidirectional by nature) has to carry the most options for getting decent sound.

Why is that?

 

[Marc Piane]

Anyway, I am right that you mic the soundpost and not the bass bar, right?

I usually do neither. If a guy mics the bass that way I just move during the show so the mic is right in front of the bridge. If the guy seems clueless I just wrap the mic in a hand towel and shove it behind the tailpiece. Every guy has his 'way'. Fighting with sound guys is pointless. Many of these guys are victims of the power trip that comes with running sound. I wait and see what sounds he gets. If its cool then great. If I'm not happy I just do what he asks during soundcheck and change what I need to when the show starts.

I try really hard to discourage a DI. My druthers are mic-to-pa only. I send the pickup signal to the amp. That is the stage monitor. I have never been in a situation where we needed bass in the floor monitors. I carry a pre-DIbox for pa gigs where the tech insists on a DI though. Actually a Sansamp. I remember reading an interview with some heavy that you should have some eq control on your end. It has turned out to be pretty handy more than once. You know what your bass is supposed to sound like so the less they can mess up the better.

 

[Jason Hollar]

Yikes -- don't piss off the sound man!

A cretin he may be, but he also has absolute control of the "Suck Knob" (Gary Larson comic).

Even though it might sound just fine in the theater during rehearsals -- what happens when 200 people show up and absorb all that roomy goodness?

You have a nice EA amp with a clean DI right? Have you had good luck with that?

I always carry a Countryman active DI in case things get strange. At least I know it's matched to my pickups and delivers a clean sound. Unless it's a great company, sound guys usually have beat up cheapo passive DI's that don't work well for DB pickups.

As for mic'ing, that's another story. If it meant not setting up next to the drums, I would have told him to forget about it.

Mic'ing the amp is a great suggestion.

 

[TroyK]

Even though it might sound just fine in the theater during rehearsals -- what happens when 200 people show up and absorb all that roomy goodness?

I couldn't see with the house lights out, but I'd guess there were fewer than 50 people there.

You have a nice EA amp with a clean DI right? Have you had good luck with that?

Yep! And he did use my EA's DI.

As for mic'ing, that's another story. If it meant not setting up next to the drums, I would have told him to forget about it.

Yeah, i did, I should have stuck with it. I couldn't hear ANY difference with his magic and our rehearsals so I can't really say if he got a good sound or not. But he got in the way. I'm made in myself for letting him (and other things on that gig) get into my head.

Mic'ing the amp is a great suggestion.

Yeah, I should have considered that. I did suggest sticking the mic under my bridge, which is how I frequently like to record and he was a jerk about it. I have no idea what his background was. I could have used a small, pellet gun in my case to plink him with from stage.

I admit that I'm kind of whining here. I take quite a bit of responsibility for how this went, how I handled it and how I let it get to me. In reality, I'm not sure it went bad. I'm just self critical and the variance of really good moments to regrets was larger than I like on gigs, both for me personally and for the group. I want to be better than that. There will always be externalities that attempt to screw with our games when we get to gigs. I need to spend some time thinking about how not to let them...and shop for that little pellet pistol. Nothing powerful, wouldn't even want to break the skin, just let him know that the suck knob isn't the only long range weapon in the room.

 

[robobass]

My feeling is, a 100 seat theater is not large enough to require any sound reinforcement at all. Also, If using acoustic instruments, and/or, if the hall is reverberant, the less amplification, the better the result. I once heard Edgar in Alice Tully Hall with Bela and Mike Marshall. There was PA of course, but it was really subtle. At first I had to strain to hear. After a short time, me and the rest of the audience tuned in, and what we got was really pure and beautiful. Very few soundmen can understand this. A mentor of mine once said: "90% of the time, soundmen only make the sound worse. 9% of the time they make it not worse but not better..." I say, let the audience find you. Don't beat them over the head with volume. Most of the time, the sound of the group could be improved simply by everyone turning down!

That said, I try to be as diplomatic as possible with the soundmen I work with. I say something like: "We have a certain sound that works acoustically. We find that our stage sound takes us pretty far. If we have too much PA in a small room, It really muddles things. Especially the bass, which resonates sympathetically to itself and everything else. So what you can do to help us is to try to keep the overall (and especially the subwoofer) volume as low as possible." It sometimes works!

I recently did a swing jazz quintet gig in a real catacomb! It was a tiny arched stone cellar which held about 30 people. Soundchecking, we were miserable. The leader wanted to bring in more PA gear, but I insisted that the only way to make this work would be to leave the setup as it was, but to play as softly as possible. They took it to heart, and the gig went off wonderfully.

So, I'm not sure what my point is, but perhaps to - in a friendly way - let the soundman know how much power he has, and how delicate the sound of your band is, and how he could crush it and destroy it in a moment if he were any less than a true disciple of music.

Avoid the Dark Side!
Robobass

 

[Ed Fuqua]

The answer to the question "Do you want a mic or a DI" is "No" if you do not indeed want one. Personally, I would have said "Oh if we're going to mic the bass, then I won't use the amp at all."

Sure, he called you for the gig. But he called YOU for the gig, so that's who needs to make decisons about what's going to sound best. It doesn't have to be personal, you don't have to be a prima donna. in my (somewhat limited) experience as long as I act like I not only know what I'm doing, but I expect you to know what you're doing AND understand that I know what I'm doing, we get along just fine. I'm not going to get into an argument with the sound guy, I'm just going be firm and polite about getting what I want. I know what I want, I am relying on you and your expertise to GET me what I want kind of thing.

No problems so far.

 

[Ed Fuqua]

Oh and I totally disagree about mic'ing the amp. Mic the instrument.

 

[TroyK]

You would handled this gig better than me, Ed and it's one of the many reasons I admire you and why I solicit your feedback.

I'm getting there. A little bit every year.

-tk

 

[damonsmith]

Oh and I totally disagree about mic'ing the amp. Mic the instrument.

+ 1. You just can't these people with a DI or mic'ing the amp. I use it with my EUB, but that is the nature of that instrument, never with the double bass.

 

[mr.hughes]

It's a tough one - we become slaves to too many masters on gigs like these. Sometimes the biggest master is ourselves and we're unwilling to drop our standards - which is to be commended, but makes it difficult when soundguys want to do it their way.

A few weeks back I had a similar amount of grief at a soundcheck. There was a new PA in the venue and Mr. Soundman really liked his new Subwoofers, to the point that the subs in the PA were drowning out my amp onstage (which was quiet to begin with - bass, two acoustic guitars and one vocal). As much I diplomatically tried saying 'I think there's a bit too much low end in the subs' he disagreed. This is where having a parametric EQ before your signal to the PA comes in handy.

A few tweaks later and things sounded better and I was happy and Mr. Soundguy remained blissfully ignorant.

Having said all that, it's tough being the sideman and trying to please everyone but ultimately that's what we have to do. Well, maybe not 'please' but at least not piss someone off so that it shows.

Good luck in Seattle. Hope it works out for you.

 

[Jason Hollar]

Well, if it was just a really small show -- maybe the best mic'ing would have been stereo stage mics or something...just to fill out the sound.

I really do like the idea of the pellet gun though.

 

[damonsmith]

Most situations that are appropriate for acoustic bass rarely need a sound system. This is just something to keep in mind, especially indoor gigs.
When I met Bert Turetzky, I had a project with Mike Watt at a rock club, we got a nice guarantee, and I was able pay Bert a good fee to come up and open. He just used his amp, and did his normal recital. Some kid yelled "Louder!", Bert said "No, you listen louder and it will be fine".
Most jazz groups have the ablity to play together in real time, sound people are not used to this, and want control of everything.
Certain groups I play with request no sound person at venues where we have a choice.

 

[Damon Rondeau]

Sound Techs are as variable in quality as drummers, sous chefs or any other occupational group you might name. There are numerous technical ways to accomplish something: they all have their own personal preferred ways. If they can achieve good results, who cares how they achieve it?

They all have their own ears, too, and this is where you can get in big trouble -- sometimes it doesn't matter whether you're nice or not, whether you work with the Tech on the sound or not. If that Tech has sub-woofer fever then you are gonna get sub-woofed. EQ all you want on your end -- he's got the Suck Knob, as Jason pointed out, and he's gonna sub-woof you if that's all he wants or needs...

I'm not defending them all on principle, it's just that it can be kind of complicated, kind of subjective, and kind of time-crunching when everything is coming down to hit time. In large rooms, despite thorough sound-checking, I'm never really sure what I sounded like in the house until I listen to my own recording after the fact. If I sound OK on stage to myself and to my colleagues, I'm not going to be entirely dissatisfied if the Tech screwed up the house sound. I'll know that I presented the Tech with a good product to work with. That's his thing to take and make beautiful or to screw up. I can't do everything and my body gets sick with anxiety and anger when I do try to do everything.... So I'm mostly going to stick with bass-playing and being part of the ensemble and doing whatever I can to make the music-making schmeck.

If he screws it up then we're gonna watch extra careful next time. There might not be a next time for that Tech and our group.

 

[Marc Piane]

Most situations that are appropriate for acoustic bass rarely need a sound system. This is just something to keep in mind, especially indoor gigs.
When I met Bert Turetzky, I had a project with Mike Watt at a rock club, we got a nice guarantee, and I was able pay Bert a good fee to come up and open. He just used his amp, and did his normal recital. Some kid yelled "Louder!", Bert said "No, you listen louder and it will be fine".
Most jazz groups have the ablity to play together in real time, sound people are not used to this, and want control of everything.
Certain groups I play with request no sound person at venues where we have a choice.

I suppose in the ideal world this is true but I come across all kinds of situations where I need support. Sometimes a little amp help suffices. Sometimes I need even more. If there is a pa I'd rather run a mic through it then turn my amp up to cover the whole room.

Ed is right on... we play the acoustic bass not the amp.