Venue outlets have open ground. What does that mean?

[Turnaround]

I'm also not an electrician, but I have had a guitarist friend thrown back against the wall when he stepped up to a mic where the power wasn't grounded. It was a dive where there was an outlet that wasn't grounded and one that was, and people that knew the place knew not to use the ungrounded one.

I believe - and more knowledgeable people can confirm or correct me here - that bringing a rubber mat to stand on when you play can help as a safety precaution.

A rubber mat won't help you in most cases. You get shocked when you come into contact with something that is grounded while handling something that isn't. So if your amp isn't properly grounded but the PA is, you'll get zapped when you touch the mic.

 

[g-dude]

I once owned a house with this problem.

If you’re thinking I bought it from an electrician, you’re absolutely correct. That was only one of the dangerous things going on.

Glad that is in the past.

 

[mcnach]

I once owned a house with this problem.

If you’re thinking I bought it from an electrician, you’re absolutely correct. That was only one of the dangerous things going on.

Glad that is in the past.

Currently renting, from a plumber.
You guessed it... we've had lots of plumbing issues.

:shrug:

 

[Slevage]

Funny enough (or not so funny), I remember playing this same location over a decade ago with a different band and getting the same results (open ground). The place was sold and renovated since then!

Renovation was probably a facelift.

 

[blliB]

Quite frankly folks. I’m appalled at the number of responses that want to call in a governmental agency. What? Why? Is there an issue with the electrical system…unequivocally YES. Is it the venue owner’s responsibility to get it corrected? YES Should you refuse to play until corrected? YES. Should you summon the government? NO!!!

 

[iiipopes]

It means buy a wireless unit.
Tomorrow.

Or if you have to play there before the wiring is corrected, EMG actives that don't use an instrument bridge ground.

 

[micguy]

I believe - and more knowledgeable people can confirm or correct me here - that bringing a rubber mat to stand on when you play can help as a safety precaution.

I can imagine a situation where that would be true, but it's not a very likely situation - the likely scenarios are different pieces of gear at different voltages (I have experienced this) and a rubber mat does nothing for those situations. The situation where I can imagine it being true are when your equipment has a fault, you're wired to high voltage, and you're breaking the return path to ground with the rubber mat. The real fix there is not a rubber mat (there are a lot of things you can touch and get zapped when standing on the mat), it's fixing the fault in your gear.

The fact that you have hum and the fact that the 3rd wire is not grounded are independent things - they may or may not have anything to do with each other.

 

[J-Bass RMR]

GFCI won't help you if there's no ground for it to work with

@Tommy Sparks Can you comment on whether this is accurate?

I use one.......on the job as an electrician

 

[Smallmouth_Bass]

Renovation was probably a facelift.

I am sure it was.

 

[Smallmouth_Bass]

And if you sing stay away from the mics!

I do sing backups!

We've played this venue dozens of times and they've had live bands there on weekends for as long as I can remember, so I expect the wiring fault to be relatively minor. We're plugging everything through some Furman power bars, so I don't know if that's adding any sort of protection, but I am assuming all the other bands are not.

I do recall many many years ago the guitarist/singer in a band I was playing with at the time getting shocked going up to the mic. I could physically see the spark go from the mic to his lips. He had an old two prong Fender head. I think that had something to do with it.

 

[Smallmouth_Bass]

Quite frankly folks. I’m appalled at the number of responses that want to call in a governmental agency. What? Why? Is there an issue with the electrical system…unequivocally YES. Is it the venue owner’s responsibility to get it corrected? YES Should you refuse to play until corrected? YES. Should you summon the government? NO!!!

Yes. We are on very good terms with this venue and will just talk to them. There's no need to get authorities involved!

 

[rickdog]

GFCI won't help you if there's no ground for it to work with. I'd refuse to play this joint.

AFAIK, a GFCI does not need a ground connection to work with. My understanding is that they work by measuring the difference between the current flowing in the hot leg and the current returning in the neutral. They should be very, very nearly the same. Any difference indicates that current is finding an alternate return path, which could be through you. They trip at a difference that is less than what has a significant chance of harming you.

With that said, the venue really needs to fix this ASAP. I agree with having a serious talk with them, reminding them of their potential liability if someone is harmed due to their violation of electrical safety codes. It would be a courtesy to your fellow musicians in other bands that play there if you tell them about the hazard as well. Calling in the inspectors is very much a last resort - do you really want to see the venue where you play shut down?

 

[SoCal80s]

As to the question: How dangerous is this really? Normally it is not. BUT, if there is a problem in some equipment that causes parts of it to become electrified (such as an exposed wire touching the metal casing of an amp) and then you touch that electrified item, the electricity will run through you instead of running down the ground wire like it would if it was properly grounded. So normally not a big deal on its own, but if something goes wrong with some equipment it could be deadly.

As to using a GFCI, this will provide some protection to people because in the event that electricity runs to ground through a person, the GFCI will detect a drop in voltage returning and will turn off the power. So you will get zapped, but only for a split second while the GFCI trips. Definitely a good suggestion.

 

[pbass2]

I gotta look into this GFCI thing--something like this?: https://www.amazon.com/Grounded-Wat...keywords=portable+gfci&qid=1661358354&sr=8-10

I always bring a Furman power strip w surge protection, and the only thing I plug in is my own amp and pedals (and I don't sing): (Furman SS-6B Surge Block). Does that offer protection in an open ground situation like this venue has?

 

[wysiwyg248]

So, at my last gig I noticed that when I turned on the mains with the PA turned off and nothing going to them, there was a huge hum coming from them. So, as I had a handy electrical outlet tester in my kit I decided to test the outlets where the band plays and plugs into and found that there is an open ground. I do not know a lot about electronics and electricity.

What does that mean and more specifically, what dangers - if any - does that pose for the band? Without changing the wiring at the venue, what can I do to mitigate any issues this condition may cause?

Their building is not up to code, they should fix this right away since there is an electrocution risk. Do not play farefooted on this venue, get insurance for your amp and bring a defibrillator the next gig.

 

[groovaholic]

Quite frankly folks. I’m appalled at the number of responses that want to call in a governmental agency. What? Why?

I remember playing this same location over a decade ago with a different band and getting the same results (open ground).

Personally, I'd advise the venue of the issue, again - and maybe lay a heavy hint:
"We sure love playing there, but we'd be bummed if someone got electrocuted on stage or the fire marshal shut you down for something so simple"
That way, you're absolutely sure that the current ownership is aware of the unsafe issue.

Then if they don't do anything, I'd get an inspector involved.

I'm sorry if that's considered appalling, but I've seen too many people injured when unsafe conditions are ignored. And we're all in this together.

 

[Geogio]

Two words: Keith Relf

 

[4Mal]

@groovaholic Yep. Too many folks in the bar/restaurant biz try to skate by on prayer... works right up until someone gets hurt... It isn't safety third... or at least shouldn't be.

In this venue, if I were the OP, I would scour the abailable outlets to find a power source that has a good ground. Then give the club a chance to either run power from there via a properly routed extension cord or fix the outlet.

I would prefer not to be a part of the next Great White event... even though that was pyrotechnics, there was dumb@ss venue negligence involved. Just like the negligence of ignoring electrical distribution issues.

 

[DaveParker39]

Well, now I'm worried about something I wasn't worried about before I saw this thread existed.
(not complaining)
I can imagine some of the places we could play aren't up to code.

 

[higain617]

It means the wiring is old (2-wire), and there's no earth ground for the circuit. If there's a circuit breaker, you should be okay.