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Double Bass Vibrato with Fourth Finger

tstone

tstone

Nov 16, 2010
510
29
San Francisco, CA
#1
I'm not happy with the vibrato I can achieve with the fourth finger. It's not as controlled or as wide as the vibrato I can achieve with fingers 1 or 2.

I think part of the reason is that I have slender and not very strong fingers, and I definitely need to back finger 4 up with 3, or even 2 and 3, to get a clear tone. I think having two or three fingers in contact with the string inhibits the rolling action of the left hand.

I tried a Forum search and have looked in technique books such as Bradetich, but I haven't seen this specific issue addressed.

So my question is, how many fingers do you have down on the board when you do a fourth finger vibrato? And are the fingers bunched tightly together, or spread apart?

Any other tips would also be welcome, of course.
 
#2
I always partner four up with three, they work as a team for most of us of Simandl heritage. Experiment with different angles, I recently discovered a first finger vibrato I liked much more by angling my finger back more. Also, take out the metronome, and try vibrating as slowly as possible with the beat, slowly increasing in tempo. Break it down to bare bones, see what you like and don't, and take it from there. And as always, be patient with yourself. Everything good takes time.
 
#3
4th finger vibrato just is a bit less satisfactory... so if musically a particularly intense vibrato is required, change the fingering. There will be time to do that, since any note long enough to notice the difference in vibrato is also long enough to get to 2nd finger.

That said, you should still practice to get it as good as possible.
 
#4
I don't have so much trouble with 4th finger vibrato and don't notice much difference with my 1st or 2nd finger.
I only notice a difference when doing vibrato on low notes on the A and E string, say a G on the E string. The 4th finger seems more blocked on the low notes.

What you can try is to make more up and down movement with the 4th finger instead of staying in one place and 'rolling' the finger. It is hard to explain exactly.
 
#5
I tend to have trouble with 4th finger vibrato near the crook of the neck; what usually solves this problem for me is lifting all the other fingers off and moving your arm like you are giving someone a handshake while taking care not to lock your elbow, it should be a smooth fluid motion.

Experiment, experiment, experiment, until you find what works for you.
 
#6
Andrew McGregor said:
4th finger vibrato just is a bit less satisfactory... so if musically a particularly intense vibrato is required, change the fingering. There will be time to do that, since any note long enough to notice the difference in vibrato is also long enough to get to 2nd finger.

That said, you should still practice to get it as good as possible.
Click to expand...

Very good advice. If you have a 'normal' left hand, the 2nd finger is the best in balance and intensity, then the 1st and lastly, the 4th. So sometimes you must change a 2, 4 to a 1, 2 or a descending 4, 1 to 4, (shift or pivot) 2.
Tom Gale
ASODB.com :bassist:
 
#7
The placement of the thumb behind the neck and fingers, as well as the height of the elbow, all have a big effect on the smoothness and freedom of vibrato. If you have to settle on vibrato for a long enough note then try moving your thumb closer to opposite your pinkie (or your index finger, for that matter).

The "default" placement of the thumb on the neck behind the fingers normally relates to what happens if your left hand opens from a gentle fist as it comes comes, still cupped, to the neck. For me the thumb is just higher than opposite the second finger which makes vibrato on that finger very comfortable, with (again for me) the right mix of rolling and sideways movement. This is because the thumb is the pivot point around which the finger rolls.

Unless the thumb is behind the vibrato finger the rolling action is choked and you must rely more on the sideways movement of your hand to roll the fleshy pads on the ends of your fingers?

I agree with the advice to close up your 3rd (ring) finger to support index finger vibrato. The other fingers relax "the claw" and lift clear of the fingerboard to add to freedom of movement.

Best Wishes

DP
 
#9
In Thumb Position what works for me is a change in the action from "Mainly a Rolling Motion with a Sideways Component" to "Mainly a Sideways Motion with a Rolling Component".

Please bear with me.

If you sit at a table and rest your left hand on your finger ends as though you are playing a keyboard you will have your fingers arched (half bent?) and will be resting on the flat part of the pads, between the center of your fingerprint and the fingertip. I try to make the strings bisect this flat spot when I reach for notes on the neck with my cupped hand opening out of a gentle fist.

As I transition from the neck towards Thumb Position my hand starts to turn towards the bridge, my thumb leaves the base of the neck and tracks diagonally down the side of the base before flipping over into TP. The first three fingers have turned to follow the line of the strings and the index finger is more bent progressively than the 2nd and 3rd. as it stands up over the strings. The strings now make grooves diagonally across the finger ends. All through this change of shape fingers and palm have kept to the idea of a simple bridged "keyboard" shape that hooks the weight of the arm back towards you but allows the bent fingers to rise and fall freely in a flapping motion from the big knuckles (just as they do on the neck). During this transition the left forearm should avoid grounding on the ribs so there is no break in the smooth flow of notes,clarity and tone.

So, now I'm in Thumb Position, with my bridged fingers hooking the string down to the fingerboard and towards my body using the weight of my arm. My forearm and hand are lined up nicely and point diagonally down across the strings. The fingers cannot roll in the same direction as the strings but are free to move widely diagonally. This is OK because only part of the diagonal motion will translate into shortening and lengthening the string (the aim of vibrato).The finger ends will flex and twist because they do not have a lot of lateral strength, and the fleshy pads will also roll a little. Not much movement up and down the string is needed because the notes are now so close together

The diagonal movement of the hand and fingers comes mainly from the flat movement of the elbow, a hinge joint that only moves in one direction. If the fingers and wrist stand up a little (not too flat), and the wrist can flex a little too, I can add a slight roll to the hand motion that will help shape the vibrato and keep it springy and relaxed.

If you go back to sitting at a table with your fingers resting in "keyboard shape" to support the weight of your arm then move your hand sideways your finger ends will flex and roll until they take up slack. There should be a gentle "bounce" at each end as your hand changes direction.Then allow your hand. wrist and forearm to stand up a little and join in by rolling and flexing slightly as your hand moves sideways. Any stiffness in your elbow will affect the the smooth transition from neck to TP, shifting in the upper register and your TP vibrato.

Les Fret, to me the pivot becomes the end of the finger resting on the string and, to a lesser extent (?), the left elbow if the forearm also rolls a little.

Apologies for being so long-winded above but I think that the way the LH transitions in and out of TP and how effectively the fingers can continue to rise and fall strongly, simply and evenly during this process both have a big effect on starting and maintaining vibrato anywhere on the upper fingerboard.

Cheers everyone......

DP
 
#10
wow, great analysis David! thanks

so basically what your saying is that in TP vibrato there is more sideways on the string movement. And that the movement is more
diagonal because the fingers are positioned more diagonal on the fingerboard (so a bit more pointed away from you).
And that there is more flex to the finger tips.

Or did I misread something?
 
#11
Hey tstone, I'm proud of ya man. Most bass players do not use that little finger at all. I refrain from telling them to teach that little SOB to behave because I met a really good bass player once that only used one finger (cuz that was all he had). But I'm telling you, "make that little SOB behave cuz you'll be glad you did". When I find my little finger is a little week the ring finger comes to the rescue.
 
#12
Les Fret, I have just pulled out my old copy of "The Art Of Double Bass Playing" by Warren Benfield (Summy-Birchard Company, Illinois, 1973) to re-read what he says about vibrato.

He has some interesting ideas about teaching and learning vibrato, all predating mine but with much in common. If the book is still available I think it is worth having.

To me the TP vibrato is mainly driven by the biceps and and triceps (upper arm muscle groups) alternately pumping the forearm in a flat movement through the elbow (hinge joint). The arched fingers twist and add to the rolling of the fleshy finger pads. When you add a slight overall roll of the hand a number of extras are possible. The rolling of the forearm can reduce the reliance on just twisting the finger ends, it can help find a more springy bounce at each end of the movement, it adds a little more weight to the overall movement making it easier to control, and it softens the difference between neck and TP vibratos. All this makes it easier for me to control the shape which I liken to a rounded sawtooth or softened HA HA HA HA.

The other pivot point in neck position vibrato is the shoulder joint (a ball joint). Try holding your arm out in front of you with the elbow bent at 90 degrees and palm facing you. Move your hand sideways in an arc that rotates your upper arm in your shoulder joint like an axle. Feel the bounce possible at each end of the movement. As you keep moving your hand, gradually swing your elbow back and up into simulating your left arm playing position. Notice that the motion becomes more relaxed and freer. Without stopping the simulated vibrato in this position rest your elbow on your RH index fingertip and feel the motion change. Keep simulating vibrato and gradually move your RH fingertip along your forearm away from the elbow. Suddenly the vibrato action will become freer again. I contend that this is the other true pivot point of the neck vibrato and that the elbow acts as a gentle counter weight to the hand movement. I picture my "axle"going from this new point on my forearm to my shoulder joint. The hand is moving in a free arc until you place your thumb on the back of the neck then the entire forearm is trapped into a rolling motion. You are still able to strike the fingers on the string a tone above and below. Putting your second finger down opposite your thumb further tightens up the rolling motion of your forearm and introduces the slight sideways movement that adds to the twisting of the finger and rolling of the pad.

In his research Knut Guettler has shown that a successful vibrato relies on two small muscles alternately working at the back of the shoulder.

Again long winded but I hope useful!!

DP
 
#13
Thanks for all the comments so far. A lot to think about and experiment with.

David Potts, I have tried your suggestion of moving my thumb closer to the neck heel in order to be in more direct opposition to the fourth and third finger, and it definitely helps. That change allows a freer rotation of the forearm, so that contributor to the overall vibrato is stronger. It will take a while to get used to and make automatic, but I'm already seeing an improvement, so I thank you for that.
 
#18
Excellent explanations of vibrato! Not too wordy at all.
If I may bother you with one more question:

When in the thumb position, is it ever possible or necessary to
vibrate with the thumb itself? I some times do and have always wondered if this is considered proper technique, or should I be using a shift to utilize an available finger.
Thanks in advance.
 
#19
Never thought of that one!! Good question. I generally use my thumb to play harmonics and shorter notes in moving passages where there is no time to vibrato. If a note is long enough to use vibrato I will use finger ends. Nothing I will say below claims that thumb vibrato is "wrong" but questions whether it is viable.

If you "lock" your thumb by closing the big muscle at its base across your palm towards your pinkie it gains enough strength to hook the strings down firmly with reduced risk of injury. This helps maintain the "bridged" shapes of hand and fingers and also helps to line up the thumb with the three fingers we use in thumb position as we go on up the finger board.

With this thumb use and basic hand shape in mind the side of my thumb is capable of resting firmly on the string probably about one tone lower than the index finger. The string will cross the thumb somewhere close to the base of the nail. There is very little flesh there to match the pads on the ends of fingers. Unless the thumb actually rolls the only way I could shorten and lengthen the string is to add a sliding motion to what little flesh roll is possible. This could fit in with the way my hand moves during thumb position vibrato using fingers.

I suppose, theoretically, if your fingers were held off the side of the fingerboard or high enough you could make enough roll with the thumb but (1) would it have enough strength to stand up and not to be injured, (2) could it equal the amount of roll of your fingers, (3) can the fingers remain close enough to the following notes, (4) would it fit in with the way you use your fingers and shift, (5) it would look like a bird flapping one wing!!

Perhaps a little thumb vibrato might add visual life if used instinctively on the last note when phrasing off? I am not conscious of using it.

Cheers....

DP
 
#20
Yes, I use thumb vibrato too sometimes if the fingering calls for it. But mostly I try to avoid it. Still I want to have it in my bag of tools.

While we are on the subject again. Do you apply much vibrato on double stops? I was practicing Dragontti's concert 2nd movement this week and was wandering this. It might help to get them a bit better in tune.
 

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