Vintage Fender Pickup Characteristics

[tk4207]

I've been AB'ing my basses quite a bit the last few months, and stumbled into some contradictions that I need help making sense of!

1. I've compared 4 basses:
   
   • '67 Jazz with original pups (La Bella LT Flats)
   • G&L JB5 with the standard alnico single-coils (La Bella LT Flats)
   • Ric 4003 with the high-gain pups (La Bella RX Nickel Rounds)
   • Squier Jazz with Nordstand N4JSEs (split coil hum bucking) (D'Addario NYXL Rounds)
2. Of these, the '67 Jazz pickups have some interesting properties:
   
   1. They're the hottest by a decent margin
   2. They're the clearest/most bell-like (even with flats) with the most high and low extension
   3. They're least-affected by EMF noise when soloed despite little to no shielding (excluding the humbucking Nordstrands). They're also quieter than the single-coil Bill Wilde Keystones in my Strat, and the Burstbuckers in my LP when split.
   4. The bridge pup was rewound by Lindy Fralin, but shares all of the above qualities with the all-original neck pup; i.e. the rewind has had no discernible positive or negative effects.
   5. They sound the least like the G&L alnico pups, despite being the most similar in construction and materials. The G&L's are the muddiest and weakest of the four.

My initial thoughts are-

• #1 and #2 are odd, as I've often heard that hotter pups nearly always tradeoff with clarity, but that's clearly not the case here.
• #3 is hard to understand and makes me wonder if the specific Alnico V recipe used (with any variations inherent to manufacturing at that time) is less susceptible to certain frequency bands of interference. All of the above + considering #4 has me wondering if the secret sauce is in the magnet alloy, and if so, what made it unique and is that "recipe" still available today?

My goal here is to find something similar to the '67 pups in a 5-string offering to swap into the JB5, without spending months (and $$$) buying, trying, and selling.

Curious to get input from more knowledgeable folks!

 

[tk4207]

Bump

 

[atquinn]

It's hard to make any conclusions without knowing more specs about the pickups in question, specifically, what wire is used and what resistance do they measure?

Also, in my experience, the non-electronic part of an instrument makes a difference and 5 strings do not sound exactly like 4 strings with an extra low string.

 

[Malak the Mad]

My goal here is to find something similar to the '67 pups in a 5-string offering to swap into the JB5, without spending months (and $$$) buying, trying, and selling.

It's hard to make any conclusions without knowing more specs about the pickups in question, specifically, what wire is used and what resistance do they measure?

Sounds like a good place to start. Is it possible to reach out to Lindy Fralin to get any hardpoint details from when he re-wound them?

Given all the plusses of the '67 Jazz when combined with the desire for hitting a handful of lower notes, would a detuner or converting it to BEAD be a viable and cost-effective compromise?

 

[tk4207]

It's hard to make any conclusions without knowing more specs about the pickups in question, specifically, what wire is used and what resistance do they measure?

Also, in my experience, the non-electronic part of an instrument makes a difference and 5 strings do not sound exactly like 4 strings with an extra low string.

Fair point! Organized my thoughts and added measurements below-

Bass	Pickup	Type	Neck	Bridge	Avg. String Height in mm*	Strings	Subjective Tasting Notes
'67 Jazz	Original	Single-coil	6.31	7.86	6	La Bella LT Flats	Hottest, most high and low extension, very clear. Least EMF noise.
G&L JB-5	Original (G&L Alnico Jazz)	Single-coil	7.56	7.79	9.5*	La Bella LT Flats	Quietest, muddiest. Noisy.
Squier CV Jazz	Nordstrand N4JSE	Split-coil humbucking	9.88	10.61	6.5	D'Addario NYXL Rounds	Clear, but not as hot as the '67.
Ric 4003	Original Hi-gain	Single-coil	10.67	10.83	6	La Bella RX Nickel Rounds	Second-hottest, second-most high/low extension

*lowering the pickups any further results in warbling/wolf tones

These results are very-intuitive; the '67 pickups are the lowest-resistance but subjectively seem the hottest (i.e. results the earliest/hardest clipping on my D800+). I think my next step here is to record a number of trials on each bass, average out the results, and compare the output + noise to try to test some of those subjective assessments.

 

[tk4207]

Sounds like a good place to start. Is it possible to reach out to Lindy Fralin to get any hardpoint details from when he re-wound them?

Given all the plusses of the '67 Jazz when combined with the desire for hitting a handful of lower notes, would a detuner or converting it to BEAD be a viable and cost-effective compromise?

Potentially! The bridge rewind was ~15 years ago so I'm unsure if they'd have records, but I may reach out!

I think your point about a detuner or converting to BEAD makes good practical sense if I had a regular professional need, but since I'm largely a hobbyist with occasional gigging, my aim here is to nudge the JB-5 closer in tone to the '67 and use the JB-5 for any playing out, as I'd rather keep the '67 at home to avoid theft/damage.

 

[sikamikanico]

I don’t know what may be behind the noise differences, but I believe shielding doesn’t protect against single coil hum.

Regarding sound differences, one factor could be 5 vs 4 strings. I don’t think the 67 is hotter (your specs indicate that as well), but it’s somehow louder. There may be other spec differences (what DCR wouldn’t reflect or might even obfuscate), including alnico formulation differences (5, 3, 2…) and variation/tolerances, and the length of the poles/magnets.

There may also be setup differences, and then differences inherent to the basses themselves. So one test to do: how do the 67 and the G&L compare acoustically?

the next test would be to try different strings for the G&L - the only way to counter inherent differences in basses themselves. I’d consider roundwounds for this, but different flats could work (different brands, different construction/materials). I’d also consider the “inbetween” strings like pressurewounds. Materials like Alloy 52 can do wonders. But if you like flats and low tension, check out TI Jazz flats - while $$$, they work great and last long. If you don’t like them, you can sell them used and recoup some.

Finally, pickups themselves. Most expensive and a crapshoot. Frankly, I’d just go for some vintage style single coils from a reputable maker. You’ve had good experience with Lindy, so maybe give him/them a call - if they have records of your rewind, maybe they can wind you a pair of 5 string pickups that they think will sound the closest. Or just get some stock pickups. Also, I’m not sure what J dimensions G&L used, so measure before you buy

 

[tvbop]

Yep Ive found too that original late 60's, thru 70's Fender PU;'s sound fuller and meatier than any aftermarket PU's Ive tried. Cant understand why.