Vintage vs new.

[karl_em_all]

Just throwing this out there:

Would it be fair to say that the experience gained in instrument building over the past 40years or so would result in a finished product today that would be an improvement over what came before (say a 60's Fender compared to it's modern version)?

I'd think manufacturing experience has to play some kind of factor.

 

[jim nolte]

Not trying to hijack the thread or anything, apologies for the diversions above - but to your point - I was listening this morning to a bunch of isolated tracks by Sting, John Paul Jones, Chris Squire and truthfully found it hard to believe how "rough" sounding they were. Interesting sounds, lots of character, grit and growl, but WOW lots of fret buzz, finger noise and other not so pleasant nuances that surprised me a bit.

Of course, when placed in the tracks they support the song beautifully.

Interesting exercise, simply search on "Isolated Bass Tracks" on youtube. You may be a little surprised at what you hear. I know I was.

BassHappy
www.innertainment.net

A big +1 to that! I'm always surprised when any instrument is soloed in a mix, finger noise,buzzes, everything that you mentioned. We bass players obsess over the smallest details in our instruments' sound, most of which cannot be heard in a mix. If you mostly play solo, sure, but in a normal band situation playing in tune and in synch are by far the most important elements IMHO. Jim

 

[king_biscuit]

A big +1 to that! I'm always surprised when any instrument is soloed in a mix, finger noise,buzzes, everything that you mentioned. We bass players obsess over the smallest details in our instruments' sound, most of which cannot be heard in a mix. If you mostly play solo, sure, but in a normal band situation playing in tune and in synch are by far the most important elements IMHO. Jim

All of that is true, but the obsessive attention to every detail is one of the things that makes all of this interesting -- especially to all of the regulars in the TB equipment forums! After all, the average listener wouldn't know the difference if you just hummed the basslines into a microphone, so why bother with any of this I always bring at least two different basses to a gig; not because the audience can tell any difference, but because it makes the whole ordeal more enjoyable for me.

 

[mongo2]

After all, the average listener wouldn't know the difference if you just hummed the basslines into a microphone

Or you could do this...Tres Cool

 

[Laurent]

Just throwing this out there:

Would it be fair to say that the experience gained in instrument building over the past 40years or so would result in a finished product today that would be an improvement over what came before (say a 60's Fender compared to it's modern version)?

I'd think manufacturing experience has to play some kind of factor.

I think that the biggest difference comes from CNC cutting machines. Each piece of wood being absolutely perfect and identical to any piece manufactured in the same production run.

I can't speak of craftsmanship of the people building instruments. I have visited the Fender factory in Corona and they have a lot of people working in there. The work is done assembly line style.

I have noticed that Fender instruments from a same year and same series play and sound exactly the same. In general I think quality and quality control is a lot better than it's been in the past. I have seen terrible instruments made by Fender in the late 70's.

 

[elBandito]

I'd much rather get a brand new sadowsky over a vintage jazz bass of similar value.

 

[xUptheIronsx]

I would not say no to a new bass, but the allure of garnering something that there are not many of is what I find fun. There is something cool about touching a piece of history directly...

My dream bass would be a 62 J, and I am saving up to eventually make that happen...hopefully. In the meantime, I would also love a new Gretsch White Falcon...

I guess I am in the camp that is not pursuing a certain sound, cause all basses (can) sound the way I want them to given some tweaking of knobs. Each bass has a characteristic sound that I WANT to be different.

 

[FFTT]

I'm glad my pursuit of happiness isn't as expensive as guys my age buying a Porsche!

 

[Iridescentone]

Just throwing this out there:

Would it be fair to say that the experience gained in instrument building over the past 40years or so would result in a finished product today that would be an improvement over what came before (say a 60's Fender compared to it's modern version)?

I'd think manufacturing experience has to play some kind of factor.

I don't think so, not for the stuff that matters. With maybe one exception....lighter weight tuners.

Let's examine 60's vs new Fenders;

> Tighter neck pocket by CNC = irrelevant, the screws do the work
> High mass bridges = irrelevant, the bent steel threaded saddles, still the best IMO
> Neck shims on old Fenders = irrelevant
> Poly finishes = arguable, but many prefer nitro
> Quality of wood = no one argues that newer is better
> Elecs = No discernible improvement

What's left?

Edit: Another improvement is easy access truss rod adjuster (where applicable).

 

[bachlover]

A big +1 to that! I'm always surprised when any instrument is soloed in a mix, finger noise,buzzes, everything that you mentioned. We bass players obsess over the smallest details in our instruments' sound, most of which cannot be heard in a mix. If you mostly play solo, sure, but in a normal band situation playing in tune and in synch are by far the most important elements IMHO. Jim

I agree with this, but it doesn't stop the obsession. I've been agonizing the last few days over the difference between a Yamaha BB1025 and 2025. What I'm discerning is a slight improvement in punch with the P pup and growl when the P's coupled with the J on the 2025. I posted previously about the Yammy technology that's incorporated in the 2025 where they artificially try to replicate the same conditions in a day or 2 that a 50 year old instrument undergoes. It seems that in this case the difference is slight when all the tweaking on the 1025 is done, but I'll probably go with the 2025 because I'LL know even if nobody else does when everyone's wailin'.

 

[Jefff]

I like basses that play well and sound good.


I don't really care when or where they were made.

 

[SanDiegoHarry]

Just throwing this out there:

Would it be fair to say that the experience gained in instrument building over the past 40years or so would result in a finished product today that would be an improvement over what came before (say a 60's Fender compared to it's modern version)?

I'd think manufacturing experience has to play some kind of factor.

I could not agree more.

And I am REALLY getting to hate the word "Vintage". I am older than the vast majority of Fenders anyone here play (or has played) and I am *not* vintage - I'm just old!

 

[SanDiegoHarry]

I don't think so, not for the stuff that matters. With maybe one exception....lighter weight tuners.

Let's examine 60's vs new Fenders;

> Tighter neck pocket by CNC = irrelevant, the screws do the work
> High mass bridges = irrelevant, the bent steel threaded saddles, still the best IMO
> Neck shims on old Fenders = irrelevant
> Poly finishes = arguable, but many prefer nitro
> Quality of wood = no one argues that newer is better
> Elecs = No discernible improvement

What's left?

Edit: Another improvement is easy access truss rod adjuster (where applicable).

I disagree on several counts:

> Tighter neck pocket by CNC = irrelevant, the screws do the work
- I disagree. Night pockets make for a more stable instrument (no shifting)

> High mass bridges = irrelevant, the bent steel threaded saddles, still the best IMO
- While this is debatable, I don't disagree. My Lakland's bridge is bent metal and it sounds great.

> Neck shims on old Fenders = irrelevant
- Irrelevant? They are obvious indications of poor manufacturing quality. Irrelevant? Hardly.

> Poly finishes = arguable, but many prefer nitro
- Poly lasts longer. Insanely thick poly (ala late '70s fenders) is silly, but I think poly is an improvement.

> Quality of wood = no one argues that newer is better

- Indeed. A Fender 3 piece glued alder, Poplar or basswood body functions but can hardly be called superior to a single or two piece alder / swamp ash body you would find today on any decent instrument.

> Elecs = No discernible improvement
??? Seriously? Today's pickups and preamps are VASTLY better than those offered prior to the 1980s - and there is a huge variety to choose from.

 

[peledog]

To me 'vintage' still holds a nostalgic connotation when it comes to electric instruments. There's a vast difference time-wise between classical and electric instruments. Maybe in 250 years, there will be a test comparing new basses with 60s/70s era basses.

In the meantime, to me, it's more hype and an inflated market for collectors. I buy basses to play, for the most part, and resale value doesn't affect purchase decisions. However, given the opportunity to buy a late 60s/early 70s Jazz - I would do it.

Great article and the NPR link was very eye opening as well.

 

[The Bass Clef]

I disagree on several counts:

> Tighter neck pocket by CNC = irrelevant, the screws do the work
- I disagree. Night pockets make for a more stable instrument (no shifting)

> High mass bridges = irrelevant, the bent steel threaded saddles, still the best IMO
- While this is debatable, I don't disagree. My Lakland's bridge is bent metal and it sounds great.

> Neck shims on old Fenders = irrelevant
- Irrelevant? They are obvious indications of poor manufacturing quality. Irrelevant? Hardly.

> Poly finishes = arguable, but many prefer nitro
- Poly lasts longer. Insanely thick poly (ala late '70s fenders) is silly, but I think poly is an improvement.

> Quality of wood = no one argues that newer is better

- Indeed. A Fender 3 piece glued alder, Poplar or basswood body functions but can hardly be called superior to a single or two piece alder / swamp ash body you would find today on any decent instrument.

> Elecs = No discernible improvement
??? Seriously? Today's pickups and preamps are VASTLY better than those offered prior to the 1980s - and there is a huge variety to choose from.

- I've seen more than my fair share of loose CNC'd neck pockets on Fenders from every country they make them in. However, I have actually NEVER seen a sloppy neck pocket on a pre-CBS Fender. I'd love to see pics of that if someone has a loose one because my '61 P's pocket is as tight or even tighter than the several Custom Shop basses I've owned.

- I agree that the high mass bridge vs. bent steel is debatable. My personal opinion is.. whatever increased sustain is supposed to be gained by a high mass is overshadowed by unecessary extra weight, so I prefer the old bent steel bridges also.

- I do a lot of set ups and I've actually found factory neck shims in lots of modern American and Custom Shop Fenders. So I would say the point is irrelevant because all eras have used neck shims.

- Poly lasts longer than nitro, but nitro feels much better to me - so that's completely personal taste and nothing to do with quality of manufacturing. And a worn nitro neck feels infinitely better than a poly neck to me. Many would say that nitro finished bodies sound better too, because they are thinner finishes and don't dampen the vibrations as much as poly. I'm not a chemist though, and that's what you'd have to be to begin to defend that argument here on TB, whether it's true or not.

- I would definitely take a nice dark Brazilian rosewood board over the Indian rosewood Fender uses now. I've seen many 2, 3, 4, and even 5 piece Fender bodies from all eras, even now, so that hasn't changed. The "Duo-Tone" models that Fender offers now are pretty awesome too IMO, definitely not lower quality because of the # of body pieces though.

- The statement about modern electronics being VASTLY better is your sole opinion, stated as if it was a "no brainer" for everyone to think that way. However, being more modern does not = better tone. Can it? Yes. But can a vintage P/U also sound better than a modern one? Yes. But there is no empirical rule that modern is "vastly" better. There are thousands of professional guitartists, bassists and sound/recording engineers that prefer the sound of vintage electronic. I personally do not like the sound of most on-board preamps.

 

[petrus61]

- I've seen more than my fair share of loose CNC'd neck pockets on Fenders from every country they make them in. However, I have actually NEVER seen a sloppy neck pocket on a pre-CBS Fender. I'd love to see pics of that if someone has a loose one because my '61 P's pocket is as tight or even tighter than the several Custom Shop basses I've owned.

- I agree that the high mass bridge vs. bent steel is debatable. My personal opinion is.. whatever increased sustain is supposed to be gained by a high mass is overshadowed by unecessary extra weight, so I prefer the old bent steel bridges also.

- I do a lot of set ups and I've actually found factory neck shims in lots of modern American and Custom Shop Fenders. So I would say the point is irrelevant because all eras have used neck shims.

- Poly lasts longer than nitro, but nitro feels much better to me - so that's completely personal taste and nothing to do with quality of manufacturing. And a worn nitro neck feels infinitely better than a poly neck to me. Many would say that nitro finished bodies sound better too, because they are thinner finishes and don't dampen the vibrations as much as poly. I'm not a chemist though, and that's what you'd have to be to begin to defend that argument here on TB, whether it's true or not.

- I would definitely take a nice dark Brazilian rosewood board over the Indian rosewood Fender uses now. I've seen many 2, 3, 4, and even 5 piece Fender bodies from all eras, even now, so that hasn't changed. The "Duo-Tone" models that Fender offers now are pretty awesome too IMO, definitely not lower quality because of the # of body pieces though.

- The statement about modern electronics being VASTLY better is your sole opinion, stated as if it was a "no brainer" for everyone to think that way. However, being more modern does not = better tone. Can it? Yes. But can a vintage P/U also sound better than a modern one? Yes. But there is no empirical rule that modern is "vastly" better. There are thousands of professional guitartists, bassists and sound/recording engineers that prefer the sound of vintage electronic. I personally do not like the sound of most on-board preamps.

+1000

 

[king_biscuit]

- I've seen more than my fair share of loose CNC'd neck pockets on Fenders from every country they make them in. However, I have actually NEVER seen a sloppy neck pocket on a pre-CBS Fender. I'd love to see pics of that if someone has a loose one because my '61 P's pocket is as tight or even tighter than the several Custom Shop basses I've owned.

- I agree that the high mass bridge vs. bent steel is debatable. My personal opinion is.. whatever increased sustain is supposed to be gained by a high mass is overshadowed by unecessary extra weight, so I prefer the old bent steel bridges also.

- I do a lot of set ups and I've actually found factory neck shims in lots of modern American and Custom Shop Fenders. So I would say the point is irrelevant because all eras have used neck shims.

- Poly lasts longer than nitro, but nitro feels much better to me - so that's completely personal taste and nothing to do with quality of manufacturing. And a worn nitro neck feels infinitely better than a poly neck to me. Many would say that nitro finished bodies sound better too, because they are thinner finishes and don't dampen the vibrations as much as poly. I'm not a chemist though, and that's what you'd have to be to begin to defend that argument here on TB, whether it's true or not.

- I would definitely take a nice dark Brazilian rosewood board over the Indian rosewood Fender uses now. I've seen many 2, 3, 4, and even 5 piece Fender bodies from all eras, even now, so that hasn't changed. The "Duo-Tone" models that Fender offers now are pretty awesome too IMO, definitely not lower quality because of the # of body pieces though.

- The statement about modern electronics being VASTLY better is your sole opinion, stated as if it was a "no brainer" for everyone to think that way. However, being more modern does not = better tone. Can it? Yes. But can a vintage P/U also sound better than a modern one? Yes. But there is no empirical rule that modern is "vastly" better. There are thousands of professional guitartists, bassists and sound/recording engineers that prefer the sound of vintage electronic. I personally do not like the sound of most on-board preamps.

Very well stated!

 

[P. Aaron]

I love the classic looks of the early Fenders. Some of those instruments have produced most of the music that influences us today.

The cost of a vintage instrument is where I draw the line. I want to make music, get at the notes, play gigs. Seeking out that 'one' took a lot of time in the past. I have come to enjoy basses made in 2010 and 2002.

They capture the chracter of the Fender (or the tones I need) sound, are easily playable and react positively to my adjustments. Necks, frets, bodies are aged by my playing. I have tags & receipts for them so there's no question of pedigree. If I ever part w/one, the new owner gets all of that too.

That being said, there are just some cats that can get tone out of their gear. I am interested in solving those mysteries and learning what they do so I can get my music to sound better, be a better support musician and solo role if needed.

I'll just look when you folks who buy vintage post yer pics. Keep 'em nice, I like those threads...a lot!

 

[mongo2]

- I've seen more than my fair share of loose CNC'd neck pockets on Fenders from every country they make them in. However, I have actually NEVER seen a sloppy neck pocket on a pre-CBS Fender. I'd love to see pics of that if someone has a loose one because my '61 P's pocket is as tight or even tighter than the several Custom Shop basses I've owned.

- I agree that the high mass bridge vs. bent steel is debatable. My personal opinion is.. whatever increased sustain is supposed to be gained by a high mass is overshadowed by unecessary extra weight, so I prefer the old bent steel bridges also.

- I do a lot of set ups and I've actually found factory neck shims in lots of modern American and Custom Shop Fenders. So I would say the point is irrelevant because all eras have used neck shims.

- Poly lasts longer than nitro, but nitro feels much better to me - so that's completely personal taste and nothing to do with quality of manufacturing. And a worn nitro neck feels infinitely better than a poly neck to me. Many would say that nitro finished bodies sound better too, because they are thinner finishes and don't dampen the vibrations as much as poly. I'm not a chemist though, and that's what you'd have to be to begin to defend that argument here on TB, whether it's true or not.

- I would definitely take a nice dark Brazilian rosewood board over the Indian rosewood Fender uses now. I've seen many 2, 3, 4, and even 5 piece Fender bodies from all eras, even now, so that hasn't changed. The "Duo-Tone" models that Fender offers now are pretty awesome too IMO, definitely not lower quality because of the # of body pieces though.

- The statement about modern electronics being VASTLY better is your sole opinion, stated as if it was a "no brainer" for everyone to think that way. However, being more modern does not = better tone. Can it? Yes. But can a vintage P/U also sound better than a modern one? Yes. But there is no empirical rule that modern is "vastly" better. There are thousands of professional guitartists, bassists and sound/recording engineers that prefer the sound of vintage electronic. I personally do not like the sound of most on-board preamps.

I agree with your disagreement of his disagreement

 

[Iridescentone]

I disagree on several counts:

Well actually, you disagree on all counts. lol

But we're talking about 60's Fenders vs new, same model Fenders here.

There were no preamps on 60's Fenders. Just passive pickups. The high end aftermarket pickup winders all strive to recreate the alleged "magic" of the original ones. And they charge plenty for it.

And let's not confuse 60's 4-bolt neck attachments (which worked fine) with the often loose-fitting, 70's 3-bolt junk Fender made during that era.

The new Fender stuff is terrific. But when comparing a 60's Jazz or P bass to today's standard Jazz or P bass, there really is not much improvement for the end user. It's a testament to the stamina of the original design.