Vocal Harmonisers Question

[doran.dragic]

I've never used one but our band would benefit from one so I'm trying to get as much info as possible.

Lately I've been playing with a singer who uses Boss VE-8 to harmonise his voice and results were mixed. It sounded OK at times but it's absolutely devastating on some songs and I didn't get a chance to ask him if he's using the auto mode or is it tuned to the key of the song but even if it were en there were chords in the song that were not diatonic there would be a problem for sure.

Are there devices / manufacturers that have better algorithms than others or offer more advanced setting?

I know that there are devices that allow instrument input but it wouldn't work very well because piano voicings are different and we don't have another instrument that could feed the device chord information.

Another option would probably be send MIDI but we don't play with click track but this is not an option with this band.

Any advice would be much appreciated.

 

[AGCurry]

I've never used one, don't know about them, and I tend to disdain machines in making music (yes, you can call me a troglodyte) ... but here's a question regarding harmonizing devices:

Let's say you're singing a song in the key of C. There are many songs that will use both a Dm and a D major chord. How does the harmonizer know whether to use a major or minor third?

 

[doran.dragic]

I've never used one, don't know about them, and I tend to disdain machines in making music (yes, you can call me a troglodyte) ... but here's a question regarding harmonizing devices:

Let's say you're singing a song in the key of C. There are many songs that will use both a Dm and a D major chord. How does the harmonizer know whether to use a major or minor third?

Sorry, I'm not sure if this is a serious question or a attempt to troll because I literally wrote that there might be non diatonic chords in the song which presents a problem.

I'm aware of this and forgot to add that it would most likely be used in very simple diatonic cadences which would eliminate this problem.

If you read my post carefully you could see that there are solutions for this but they require a dedicated source of music that feeds this information into the harmoniser which I'm not sure is an option with this group.

EDIT: also I'd prefer not to use them either but in this case it might be the best possible solution but this also this is not the thread where I'm interested in opinions if one should like them or not, please respect this.

 

[blastoff99]

There is no need to accuse someone of being a troll when they merely restate / amplify a concern you raised. That is not trolling behavior. In fact, the accusation borders on disrespect.

This forum is very lightly moderated because users do a great job of giving good information AND being nice to each other. Please keep up others' good work.

 

[s0c9]

I've never used one but our band would benefit from one so I'm trying to get as much info as possible.

Lately I've been playing with a singer who uses Boss VE-8 to harmonise his voice and results were mixed. It sounded OK at times but it's absolutely devastating on some songs and I didn't get a chance to ask him if he's using the auto mode or is it tuned to the key of the song but even if it were en there were chords in the song that were not diatonic there would be a problem for sure.

Are there devices / manufacturers that have better algorithms than others or offer more advanced setting?

I know that there are devices that allow instrument input but it wouldn't work very well because piano voicings are different and we don't have another instrument that could feed the device chord information.

Another option would probably be send MIDI but we don't play with click track but this is not an option with this band.

Any advice would be much appreciated.

Appropriate use of harmonizers and the harmony blend is OK for many. I've used TC's VoiceLive2 and GX-T in the past. They run best off of instrument input - guitar, keys (not so great w/ bass). Few punters can tell the difference between a Major and Minor 3rd (unless there's a discord) and IIRC one can set the level of "tracking" on the VL2. Tbh - I haven't used either in years.
My experience is that they can sound great - if setup properly - but also sound "digital" and horrible if not!
They work as long as the vocal being harmonized is the lead. I had a really tough time trying to get them to sound sound like a backing group when I was already singing the harmony line.
Again, judicious use/blend is the key.
Yes, some allow triggering by instrument or midi or even chromatics.
Pick your poison.
We went to 3-part harmonies and dumped the "machines" about 4 yrs ago!
Both my devices are sitting in their original boxes, stored and NOT collecting dust!

 

[morgansterne]

My tc helicon -- think it was model gxt -- worked very well with keyboard input. I used it for a couple years. I was the harmony vocalist and so I could beef up my own harmonies. I think they work better that way than if it's the lead vocalist using it.
I had the chance to A/b test it against a Harman "vocalist live 3" pedal. This didn't respond well at all to piano input, but it did better than the tc helicon with guitar input.
I would not use a harmonizer without instrument input. We've tried this in our current band and it's not reliable. It's ok for group effects or octave doubling, but not harmonies.

 

[AGCurry]

Sorry, I'm not sure if this is a serious question or a attempt to troll because I literally wrote that there might be non diatonic chords in the song which presents a problem.

I had no intent to troll your thread. It was an honest question, because, as I stated, I don't know anything about these devices. So, I'm gathering that the device does need the harmonic context provided by input from a chording instrument?

 

[BrentD]

I have a Harmony Singer and if you're using the input with a guitar or keyboard, I don't think it matters what key you're in. It works based on the chord voicing going in, reading the root, fifth, and third whether major or minor. This is great for key changes and accidentals.

 

[darkwasthenight]

I had no intent to troll your thread. It was an honest question, because, as I stated, I don't know anything about these devices. So, I'm gathering that the device does need the harmonic context provided by input from a chording instrument?

There are some 'set and forget' style harmonisers where you pick a key and interval and go for it, but yes a lot of the vocal ones run off intelligent (and real-time) analysis of a second input from an instrument. You get a lot of acoustic solo artists using them here but I also know a sax player who has a small synth onstage which doesn't actually output to FoH but just to the harmoniser. That means he can outline a chord with his left hand and then use it to create harmonies on his lead lines. How accurate it sounds is a matter for debate, but if you use them in ways that maximise the strengths then they can be great!

 

[mike o]

We use a TC voiceLive 2. Really like the unit. As mentioned, you need to run a guitar and key send into unit. You can really dive deep with tons of options for types of harmony - higher, lower, male, female, doubles, effects and trim all options to taste. This goes for the lead vocal and all harmony settings. Crazy good. The key is to use it tastefully and blend it behind main vocal. Two other options are auto tune (we don’t use that) and a automized tone option which gets the best possible signal out. The latter again is great. Check YouTube for demos.

 

[AGCurry]

I have a Harmony Singer and if you're using the input with a guitar or keyboard, I don't think it matters what key you're in. It works based on the chord voicing going in, reading the root, fifth, and third whether major or minor. This is great for key changes and accidentals.

Hmm. I fear I'm hijacking the thread here, but inquiring minds want to know. How would it do chord extensions (7ths, 6ths, flatted 5ths, etc.)? Apoggiaturas?

 

[mike o]

Ugh. Your got ya question is irrelevant based on this conversation? Let’s be realistic about expectations from a sub 1g stomp box. You will get unison, doubles, octaves, thirds and fifths. Pretty much standard harmonies in any music. These are all editable parameters.

Hmm. I fear I'm hijacking the thread here, but inquiring minds want to know. How would it do chord extensions (7ths, 6ths, flatted 5ths, etc.)? Apoggiaturas?

 

[s0c9]

Hmm. I fear I'm hijacking the thread here, but inquiring minds want to know. How would it do chord extensions (7ths, 6ths, flatted 5ths, etc.)? Apoggiaturas?

You won't, and most punters won't know, or hear the difference!

 

[doran.dragic]

I had no intent to troll your thread. It was an honest question, because, as I stated, I don't know anything about these devices. So, I'm gathering that the device does need the harmonic context provided by input from a chording instrument?

I'm sorry for my rude reply. These device either require some sort of harmonic context or have a mode where you set a key and they are going to harmonise in this key automatically.

 

[Guitalia]

Hmm. I fear I'm hijacking the thread here, but inquiring minds want to know. How would it do chord extensions (7ths, 6ths, flatted 5ths, etc.)? Apoggiaturas?

If the chordal input, e.g., guitar or keyboard, consists of a 9th chord, for example, the harmonizer can create one or more appropriate extensions.

How often are background singers called upon to sing appoggiaturas in your bands?

 

[Samatza]

Used a TC Helicon for a while, it had microphones built in but worked best with input from a guitar or keys.

Like everything else, it took some practice and setup to make it work nicely.

I ended up selling it to a solo guitarist/singer.

 

[jmlee]

Those machines can sound very effective in good hands—and ideally with a simple instrumental input: e.g. a solo singer with a guitar. An act like that opened for a band I was in a few years ago (with the technology available then) and sounded terrific. The songs were largely major/minor efforts, nothing modal or with complex chord structures. I suspect that's pretty much the ideal condition for these systems. Background vocals for Steely Dan covers? Not so much.

 

[GeorgesEric]

I saw a solo guitar guy on a cruise ship once singing an Eagles song. I was wondering where all these harmonies were coming from while he was singing. After the set, the guy told me about that type of pedal. For those who are not purists, these harmonizing pedals seem to do a pretty good job. The guy sounded professional. He got the gig on a cruise ship anyway.

 

[Biggbass]

I've used one for years...TC helicon. It works great with a guitar triggering the harmonies...acoustic or electric...but I always use it with just a single harmony set for a 3rd above and at approx 50% volume mixed to my voice.

If you're thinking of getting one, try to find the simplest box out there. Some have loopers built in, as well as other bells and whistles that complicate use, which can get in the way when using them in a live performance. My Harmony Singer 2 has just one button to step on and I used gaffer tape to secure the harmony knob in the 3rd above position so it doesn't move.

Run a guitar into the harmony pedal first, then into any other pedals afterward so it gets a clean signal.

 

[devnulljp]

I play with some singers that are amazing at picking harmonies. I don't really know how they do it, and I doubt a machine could do it justice. I get them to sing me a line and I learn it. They seem to jump around and don't always stick to 'sing a third above'

I have a TC harmonizer I use on guitar and bass and it's hit and miss whether it sounds good at any given time.