Double Bass VOLUME and POWER! (help!)

[The Soloist]

Hello good people of talkbass!

I play French bow (er, learning) and i cant get enough VOLUME on my low E string. the A string also sounds a tad too soft, but i make my D string booming loud without thinking about it. this is not the bass's problem btw, it's the bow's. I can't get the POWER i need to play those two strings with the same VOLUME while still using proper bow grip. usually when i play with a german bow (ive only used it like 5 times) i can usually get a nice, boomy sound off those strings (i don't know proper german grip though, just a rough example given by my school's orchestra teacher.)
ANY ADVICE? i don't wanna have to switch to German bow if i don't have to (extra 70 bucks in MY pocket). or do you think i should just get the German?

 

[Andrew McGregor]

Practice, practice, practice.

You've just discovered one of the weaker points of the French bow. What you want is possible with that bow, just takes much more practice to achieve. You may need to move the bass and or your right leg a bit to get the right angles, and maybe as much as a year or two's practice to get the technique right.

The corresponding difficulty with the German bow is playing quietly on the upper strings, so you'd still have something to practice going that way.

Personally, I think it would be worth your while getting the German bow, if your teacher can teach both grips, because as a student it's worth knowing the basics of both... then you can make an informed decision as to which you're going to really study hard later on, once you know what sort of player you're going to want to be and what suits the geometry of your body.

Don't choose based on what is easier now, though, because if you do you're inevitably going to choose German, which may not really be the right answer for you.

 

[The Soloist]

thanks, that does help. i didn't know if there was something wrong!

my teacher will and does teach both grips.

HOWEVER i might switch to german anyway...

my hand is shaped different, a lot different. i've been playing classical guitar for 3 years (which makes bass much more easy), and i've also been playing FLAMENCO for 1 year. if you've never heard of flamenco, it's basically the classical music of spain, spanish guitar. it has very rough teqniques and requires the hand to be a much different shape than normal hand positions, and i think it has lasting effect on my right thumb.

ive also been told it's not a bad thing to learn both bows. could this be helpful or harmful?

 

[David Potts]

Your three main variables when bowing are bow speed, weight (downward pressure) and distance from the bridge (contact point). Try slowing the bow speed down and bowing slightly closer to the bridge on the A and E strings. The bottom E is only vibrating at 41.7 times per second and the string has to be heavy to do this. Bow speed will be progressively faster (use more bow) as strings become thinner and vibrate faster.

Have you ever dragged your fingernails down a school blackboard to produce a horrible continuous screeching sound? If so you have set up a relationship between fingernails and blackboard, based on speed and pressure, that produces a resonance.

Listen and feel for resonance and back-pressure on the bow as you slow down. Look for maximum sound and resonance for minimum effort from you as you hunt for the right combination of bow speed, weight and contact point. I would probably use less than half the bow length for medium pace quarter notes on the E string. As notes get shorter and faster I gradually bow closer to the fingerboard for more string flexibility to control note starts, otherwise the bow starts to skid.

The slightly thinner A string moves more easily and you have some more latitude with the three variables, yet you can still find resonance. To my mind it is not just trying to move the string widely with the bow. You can do that bowing quickly over the end of the fingerboard and you still won't create a strong rich "chocolate cake" sound.

Your difficulty could also be that your bass is poorly set up and favours G and D too much, needing a sound post workover?

Happy hunting......

DP

 

[The Soloist]

Your three main variables when bowing are bow speed, weight (downward pressure) and distance from the bridge (contact point). Try slowing the bow speed down and bowing slightly closer to the bridge on the A and E strings. The bottom E is only vibrating at 41.7 times per second and the string has to be heavy to do this. Bow speed will be progressively faster (use more bow) as strings become thinner and vibrate faster.

Have you ever dragged your fingernails down a school blackboard to produce a horrible continuous screeching sound? If so you have set up a relationship between fingernails and blackboard, based on speed and pressure, that produces a resonance.

Listen and feel for resonance and back-pressure on the bow as you slow down. Look for maximum sound and resonance for minimum effort from you as you hunt for the right combination of bow speed, weight and contact point. I would probably use less than half the bow length for medium pace quarter notes on the E string. As notes get shorter and faster I gradually bow closer to the fingerboard for more string flexibility to control note starts, otherwise the bow starts to skid.

The slightly thinner A string moves more easily and you have some more latitude with the three variables, yet you can still find resonance. To my mind it is not just trying to move the string widely with the bow. You can do that bowing quickly over the end of the fingerboard and you still won't create a strong rich "chocolate cake" sound.

Your difficulty could also be that your bass is poorly set up and favours G and D too much, needing a sound post workover?

Happy hunting......

DP

that was beautiful


very good advice, i thank you for that! i really am glad that i know the technical info and how it acually works, so i can do more to improve that, thank you

 

[Eli_Upright12]

that was beautiful


very good advice, i thank you for that! i really am glad that i know the technical info and how it acually works, so i can do more to improve that, thank you

Truly great advice from David, something I might add is practicing long tones on the open strings. Just bow the open strings and slow down the bow as slow as you can go and still get a good sound. Keep practicing this and it will progressively slower. My teacher has me do this almost on the bridge to practice the Gary Karr approach to solo bowing. It really helps, I noticed that doing this everyday for over two years now(along with plenty of other practice) has greatly improved my bow facility, especially power and projection.

 

[Jon Stefaniak]

You've just discovered one of the weaker points of the French bow. What you want is possible with that bow, just takes much more practice to achieve.

I would have to disagree completely with this statement Andrew. If anything, a french bow grip puts the player in a position to get more weight into the e string more comfortably than German (maybe not for an absolute beginner, but eventually) .

 

[two fingers]

I'm a bass guitar guy. Just saw when you registered and thought I would say WELCOME!

 

[Eli_Upright12]

I would have to disagree completely with this statement Andrew. If anything, a french bow grip puts the player in a position to get more weight into the e string more comfortably than German (maybe not for an absolute beginner, but eventually) .

Honestly i think it depends more on body positioning and right arm technique than the specific bow. You just have to learn how to move around the bass for each one, and it is different.

 

[Jon Stefaniak]

I think that's what had in mind when I said comfortably. It's not a problem when playing nearer to the bridge, but, when I do play with a german bow, I find it's very awkward to play near the fingerboard and near the tip at the same time. comfort might not have be the right word, but there are more obstacles to maneuver. Of course that's kind of a non-issue in a Thread about VOLUME and POWER!

The big picture of course is that volume and power depend on arm weight, bow speed, and contact point. whether you're comfortable with a bow hold or the posture of your body when bowing the four (or five) strings is something to consider, but remember that it's not your french or german bow hold that's bowing the bass, it's you.

 

[Andrew McGregor]

I think that's what had in mind when I said comfortably. It's not a problem when playing nearer to the bridge, but, when I do play with a german bow, I find it's very awkward to play near the fingerboard and near the tip at the same time.

Which is exactly why the tradeoff is with playing softly on higher strings, and also why German bow players are more likely to use the Karr-style close to the bridge slow stroke with lots of weight technique... it avoids having to spend too much time near the tip. It helps to lean back slightly, or push the bass away from you a little.

Anyway, really the point is this: the variables are speed, weight, position on the string, and the roll angle of the bow (that is, angle the bow is rotated around the stick). Play with those four variables and you have a huge range of volume and tone combinations available. What you have to do through practice is explore the whole range enough that it becomes instinctive to create the particular tone you want at any given moment. That much is independant of the bow.

What does depend on which bow you are using is what parts of that space of possibilities you can get to easily and what parts require a bit more effort... nevertheless, with either bow you should be able to get to all of them.

 

[fergus currie]

I agree with David on a lot of thing he says here. You should also try to keep the flat of the hair on these fat low strings much more and be especially careful that you are bowing at a right angle to the string for the full length of the bow. if you have a contact point close to the bridge your bow will automatically go slower. You must experiment to find the exact speed for the dynamic at which your playing. Be careful also not to use too much rosin or you'll get that buzzy clicky noise before you get down to the right speed. Another point is to use the correct right arm weight. Feel your shoulder leaning into the string and try to have an evenly relaxed arm. Make sure your pinky is on the bow!!!! This is also crucial and so often never noticed. Check out the Jeff Bradeditch training videos (they have been posted on you tube) for some excellent advice on this subject.
FC