SnowCal said:
I'm glad someone can "respect KoRn's talent", enough for the both of us
My lady friend likes KoRn, and so far the only thing I get out of KoRn is how hilarious his 12 key drum set is, heh.
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Wanna play in Drop A, but the singer can't handle it...
- Thread starter Thomas Kievit
- Start date
I'm glad someone can "respect KoRn's talent", enough for the both of us
My lady friend likes KoRn, and so far the only thing I get out of KoRn is how hilarious his 12 key drum set is, heh.
OK, I just listened to KoRn. "Thoughtless."
Anybody could sing that song. There was nothing particularly "rangy" about it.
So I am still just as confused as I was when I read the OP.
Korn- I think I Am Going Blind, Freak on a Leash, Got the Life, every song off Follow the Leader for sure.
Hear that real Low Thud, Thud, Pop, Pop, that sounds like a tuned Kick Drum? that is Fieldy's Bass genius.
There is a good reason guitars are tuned to EADB standard. Because it sounds great for 98% of whatever you would play and someone would sing.
Tuning down half a step occurred because in many cases it does sounds a little heavier and "slightly" different to the average listener- Kiss were actually one of the first to do it, as was Van Halen.
But then things REALLY got out of control with the advent of 7-string guitards... and you now have DropA, C#, Drop C, Drop D, and even Drop A# (Breaking Benjamin)
When I was in a cover band and they suggested ANY of these F*KED up tunings, I told them, you can either buy me (3) other basses, keep them maintained and in the correct tuning, AND transport them to every gig, or we either do everything in Drop D (my hipshot) or Standard E. (because I am a 1 bass for the gig guy)
But then you get the "Well it just doesn't sound right, I was listening to it on the way to practice and it just it isn't as heavy without that Low C..." Other solution don't cover it if it isn't in standard , half step down (moved up to standard) or Drop D. Just for giggles I tried playing "Killing in the Name" on a 5-string, and while it can be done, it REALLY loses something from the drop D tuning.
If drop A is something your band really wants to do, then go for it. It does have it's own tone that some people like and some people shake their heads at. King's X plays some stuff in AEADF#B and they're a bit "back in the day", Korn plays in 7 string A standard ADGCFAD; I hate Korn, their first two albums were great and i listened to them a lot when i was young (damn that album was 16 years ago I was 14 haha), but I gave up on them after life is peachy. SunnO))), Black Sheep Wall, From a Second Story Window, I friggin love Rotten Sound and all those bands use drop A. just get thick enough strings atleast 13-56 for guitar and atleast a 130 bass string for the low A.
I'm not sure what kind of vocals your singer is going for or even what kind of style your band is going for, but for scream/growl/yell vocals it's a bit monotone and in my experience either doesn't have to be adjusted to the tuning or it's not difficult to find the vocal notes that work, "sing an octave above" for example.
I've been playing in B standard for years, my electric guitar is BEADF#B and my main basses are either BEAD or BEADG 5 strings (my acoustic guitar is standard and i have a p bass in standard). my current band plays in B standard, not really a fan of dropping the low string a step to bar chord power chords. Though Neurosis is one of my all-time favorite bands which got me experimenting with AADF#AD on my acoustic guitar lately and it's pretty rad.
I play bass and sing in my sludgey metal band. I took vocal lessons for several months, weirdly my vocal range is sort of tenor-baritone eventhough my speaking voice doesn't really sound low. I learned alot eventhough I mostly yell my head off in my band; basically it's all about breathing and confidence. I learned how to do those things properly from dvds, youtube videos (kinda), and basically working on hard on what physically works because it's quite a handful to play bass and do vocals (i think it's way more difficult than playing guitar and vocals, especially if you use your fingers instead of a pick).
Basically, i don't see why your band can't work it out with your singer unless you are finding out that he and everyone else in the band want different things. But if he is willing to work on it with you and really wants to, then it'll just take some time and if ya work hard it'll work out and be rewarding so hell yeah rock on! But if he's not into it or is too intimidated by it or being passive or stubborn, then your guitar tuning and his vocal range have nothing to do with this matter and it's just not a good fit for either of you.
Good luck! I hope it works out for you.
Try another tuning for him. We wrote most of our song's in Drop D, but we play it in Drop C because it's far easier for me to sing.
It's just right in my wheel house as they would say....
It's just right in my wheel house as they would say....
There are plenty of other reasons for wierd tunings as well. Drop tunings are more common in the metal band scene as they allow you to bar the bottom power chords with extra speed and precision.
However you do have to pay attention to your vocalist and what he/she can do. Our vocalist for Cassandra Syndrome has a 4 and a half octave range so we have a lot of flexibility in our melodies and rhythms. But I would consider that ability more the exception than a rule of any kind so other bands must do what they must.
About the only advantage of Drop G would be that you would be able to find a new band since you won't be heard in the mix. You can look to Animals As Leaders for a reference of that kinda sound, even though they are actually in Drop E (the Eighth string on their guitars are tuned to the same pitch as the E string on a standard-tuned Bass).
Tuning half a step down is done for a lot of reasons, mostly for the guitars and singers (U2 for example records in E standard, but plays live in Eb Standard to help out Bono's voice. Metallica uses Eb Standard to reduce tension on the larger string gauges they like to use, offering plenty of fundamental and tone while not being hard to play.
Other bands use different tunings because it is the way they want to sound. And especially in metal music where there can be a lot of bouncing off the open string you really do need to be in that tuning. I can play Killing in the Name Of on a 5-string as well, but it's a lot easier to play in Drop D. If I do my job right, the crowd probably won't notice the difference between either one.
BTW, most songs that are played in tunings above B Standard use six-string guitars
. Occasionally you'll have someone like Devin Townsend who plays a 7-string tuned to Open C (which is really wierd) but has a bottom G string that he really doesn't use much, same thing for Mudvayne who are in Drop-C but when they use extended-range instruments (namely Ryan M using a 5-string bass with a bottom F#) those guys just kinda stay away from the bottom string. Short point - Straying away from E-standard tuning isn't quite the Devil some musicians make it out ot be, but there can be some really important 3rd- and 4th-order effects (like making the band mix well) that need to be considered. In Cassandra Syndrome we play in B Standard, but normally our two guitarists are working in different octaves to spread our sound around the sonic spectrum and keep things clear. We are also very considerate of our EQ's and how they mix with everything else, I'm not sure how many bands do this (and I've heard some where everyone seemed to have theirs set for Obnoxious :/ )
I think that's all I have to say for now. Have a good day
Peace,
Greg
Good points Greg,
I guess my point is- it is one thing if you play in an original band, and the band decides that ALL their songs will be in one particular tuning ie half-step, or drop C,B. To me this is reasonable and part of the sound of the band, but it has to be a group decision, and obviously the singer needs to sound good in this tuning.
But having been in a cover band that wanted to cover a wide range of alternative and newer Heavy Rock, I can attest it was a nightmare, you lose a lot of your chops, switching betweening 3-4 different tunings, and constantly changing up the way scales, and fretboard knowledge should work. (and I am a 4-string player). Especially when these original bands either played all their stuff in the one non-standard tuning, or had roadies to hand them the correct guitar/bass for each song.
I guess my point is- it is one thing if you play in an original band, and the band decides that ALL their songs will be in one particular tuning ie half-step, or drop C,B. To me this is reasonable and part of the sound of the band, but it has to be a group decision, and obviously the singer needs to sound good in this tuning.
But having been in a cover band that wanted to cover a wide range of alternative and newer Heavy Rock, I can attest it was a nightmare, you lose a lot of your chops, switching betweening 3-4 different tunings, and constantly changing up the way scales, and fretboard knowledge should work. (and I am a 4-string player). Especially when these original bands either played all their stuff in the one non-standard tuning, or had roadies to hand them the correct guitar/bass for each song.
Yeah, but than someone give's eddie a guitar tuned to Eb when he dosent know it... The rest is history
Corect me if I am wrong... But if a guitar is tuned in a "drop" tuning ie: the top string is one step lower than normal Drop D,C,B ect. Should that not really make a diff to a 5 string bass where the lowest note is B? I play a little guitar and understand how a drop tuning lets you form a power chord by just barring the top three strings. Help me understand.
If your music is bouncing off the open string that's not a B, it can be really hard for a bass player in B standard to keep up, especially if it's really fast, covering a lot of space (3rds or 5ths in an octave above) or some complicated riffing that makes a lot of use of that dropped string.
Also, if you are just jamming it's a lot harder to transpose if you have to keep accounting for one person's different tuning so IMO it really helps sometimes for everyone to be using the same tuning.
Peace,
Greg
Jumbo jack- It depends on the complexity of the original riff as to whether a 5-string bass is useful or not.
Take for instance a song that is in drop D- (al slither by Velvet Revolver)
That song is VERY fast and is msotly played on the Open D-String- I am 95% positive that it will not sound the same NOR play the same using the Low -D note on the 3rd fret of a 5-string bass. Technically you could play it like that but it is not going to be very easy and will change the sound.
Another good example is QOTSA_ NO One Knows- His bass is tuned down to Drop C across all 4 strings. So his Low C octave is the 7th fret A-string. You could play this song on 5-string, but it has ALL Kinds of crazy riffs and pull offs to the open string, and I think you will not get the same vibe-tone as the detuned OPEN C string for the low notes.
Take for instance a song that is in drop D- (al slither by Velvet Revolver)
That song is VERY fast and is msotly played on the Open D-String- I am 95% positive that it will not sound the same NOR play the same using the Low -D note on the 3rd fret of a 5-string bass. Technically you could play it like that but it is not going to be very easy and will change the sound.
Another good example is QOTSA_ NO One Knows- His bass is tuned down to Drop C across all 4 strings. So his Low C octave is the 7th fret A-string. You could play this song on 5-string, but it has ALL Kinds of crazy riffs and pull offs to the open string, and I think you will not get the same vibe-tone as the detuned OPEN C string for the low notes.
THIS is the kind of message I have been waiting for!
(no hard feelings towards the rest! I respect everybody's comment and I'm very grateful to everybody here! ).Thing is, everybody in the band (so even the singer) feels good to go on this kind of tuning for a while ánd he DOES want to take lessons to become better. He is (like the rest of us), very open for new things, to explore things and see what fits us (or not
). Point is for now, that he sometimes ''overshoots'' a little bit with the higher notes. With that I mean is that he gives more then he needs to. So for that reason alone, he's gonna take lessons. Luckily for him, I know a guy who's a vocalist in a melodic death metal band, but he produces a clean / semi-clean voice. Little bit like Anders Fridén from In Flames. So I asked the guy if he can give my vocalist some lessons that he can use to develope his own unique voice. (Not trying = not knowing, right?
)Anyway, we still go on now with the Dropped down tuning, we don't wanna ''re-make'' excisting songs and we're not a coverband
So I think those things all can help a bit I've heared some BB songs, and their vocalist doesn't sound that ''brute'' or metal.. So why should it be ''impossible'' for us?
Your guy is a good singer and open to your telling him what to do, that's pure gold. If he carries your gear too you have an X-man among frontmen. Downtuning of the guitars doesn't determine what notes form the tune. Play something he can sing a "melody" over or you're all wasting each other's time.
Your singer can increase his range upwards with coaching but I don't know that he can get much lower.
Your singer can increase his range upwards with coaching but I don't know that he can get much lower.
