Double Bass Want Dark Warm Tone for Jazz

[sean_on_bass]

I currently am using a Zyex set that came on my Upton, but am thinking of trying something different for my next set. The type of tone i am looking for is warm and dark, kind of that "indirect" sound of the bass you hear from farther away. I want this type of tone to translate through piezo pickup into my amp. Pretty much what i tend to hear on classic jazz records. I realize this type of tone could purely be the result of how the bass was recorded(mic out front).

A few thoughts roaming in my brain:

-Would it make sense to use orchestral strings to achieve this goal? Would a stiffer string achieve what i am looking for? I play pretty hard pizz, and sometimes the Zyex seem to have too much give to take it. My string height is fairly high already.

-Would i just be seeking a heavier set hybrid string that my current Zyex set? I believe the ones i have now are lights..but not totally positive.

-Would guts give me what i want?

 

[SAlcott]

Flexocore Deluxe are working well for me.

 

[jsf729]

I currently am using a Zyex set that came on my Upton, but am thinking of trying something different for my next set. The type of tone i am looking for is warm and dark, kind of that "indirect" sound of the bass you hear from farther away. I want this type of tone to translate through piezo pickup into my amp. Pretty much what i tend to hear on classic jazz records. I realize this type of tone could purely be the result of how the bass was recorded(mic out front).

A few thoughts roaming in my brain:

-Would it make sense to use orchestral strings to achieve this goal? Would a stiffer string achieve what i am looking for? I play pretty hard pizz, and sometimes the Zyex seem to have too much give to take it. My string height is fairly high already.

-Would i just be seeking a heavier set hybrid string that my current Zyex set? I believe the ones i have now are lights..but not totally positive.

-Would guts give me what i want?

Sounds like Evahs are the sound you're looking for, but I like to dig in like you do and they give too much. I'm liking the Superflexibles these days. Nice even tension and not as much zing like Spirocores.

 

[Jeff Kissell]

It's gonna be tough to get that sound with a piezo pickup with any string. In my experience, as you say, that quality of the tone does come from the "air."
However I think you could get closer without changing strings.
Work on your left hand stopping the notes really clean, not much vibrato.
Right hand technique is more old fashioned, pulling the string out instead of down into the board. Watch some old YouTube videos. Also play a bit up from the end of the board where the strings will vibrate with more excursion.
Get the sound you want slowly and then speed it up. Unfortunately you'll have to practice with your amp.
-J

 

[KUNGfuSHERIFF]

And raise the bridge to see how that changes the response before you go headfirst down the string rabbit hole.

 

[lurk]

Guts

 

[deste]

Very happy with Thomastik Belcanto.
Hard under my fingers, dark and warm, but with a definite attack. Sustain is not as lon as "jazz" or "hybrid" strings.
I used for a long time D'Addario Pizzicato Hybrid, but they were too brilliant for my taste.

But, keep in mind:
1- I only have one bass
2- it's an anonymous late XIX century bass fro Bohemia, huge E, lighter G
3- when amping, I use a custom piezo by a small manufacturer (ok, I'm an endorser, see disclosure...) to a GK

Good luck in the search for the Perfect String!

 

[sean_on_bass]

It's gonna be tough to get that sound with a piezo pickup with any string. In my experience, as you say, that quality of the tone does come from the "air."
However I think you could get closer without changing strings.
Work on your left hand stopping the notes really clean, not much vibrato.
Right hand technique is more old fashioned, pulling the string out instead of down into the board. Watch some old YouTube videos. Also play a bit up from the end of the board where the strings will vibrate with more excursion.
Get the sound you want slowly and then speed it up. Unfortunately you'll have to practice with your amp.
-J

I'm resonating with your point about pulling the string out...closer to what i presume a classical pizz would sound, which is similar to the type of sound i am trying to attain. Also thinking about the piezo aspect...makes me want to change up my amped setup to something miced, but that comes with so many complications.

 

[fantasticplanet]

The type of tone i am looking for is warm and dark, kind of that "indirect" sound of the bass you hear from farther away. I want this type of tone to translate through piezo pickup into my amp.

if you want to amplify the way it sounds farther away, you have to amplify the sound from farther away. the lower the frequency, the higher the wavelength, and the more space it needs to develop. also, pickups, ears, and microphones all need to make contact with the medium through which the sound is traveling. the medium through which the sound waves are reaching your ear is air, and the medium through which the sound waves are reaching the pickup is wood (which is why it must make contact with the wood). so since the pickup hears a completely different sound (due to a different medium and distance) than the sound we hear coming from the bass, the pickup amplifies a completely different sound than the one we hear coming from the bass. however, a microphone hears the sound through the same medium that we do (air), and at whatever distance we want (since it will be making contact with the air no matter what). it hears the same way our ear does. since a microphone hears the same sound we hear coming out of the bass, it amplifies the same sound we hear coming out of the bass. for these reasons, you physically cannot get that sound you're describing out of a pickup, but you can with a mic. strings, eq and amps won't change that. i like to use a clip on mic through the house instead of an amp (to avoid feedback), and it works perfectly. but if you have to use a pickup because there's no pa, i would just try to embrace the sound of the pickup. in my opinion, you'll be more satisfied that way than trying to make it something it isn't. good luck!

 

[DoubleMIDI]

It is true that the sound of the instrument can only be captured by a distant mic, but this does not help with amplification.
Strings can influence the sound and sustain, but I don't think they vary the distance reception of the listener.
I once had the soundpost close to the bridge foot, getting a very direct sound. By repositioning it a bit more away from the soundpost, the sound was less direct and more mellow. A lot nicer with the bow, a bit less powerful plucked.
You can simulate that before running to your luthier by moving the bridge a bit (up to an inch) closer to the fingerboard. If you like that "sound distance", you might want to see your luthier.
If it's not dark enough, try changing playing technique as described before and as the last attempt try other strings.
Orchestrals generally have a short sustain, but it depends on string type.

 

[DoubleMIDI]

Just to add something and not misleading you:

If your acoustic tone is nice and not too direct, leave bridge and soundpost where they are and get a top mounted pickup (MSP, ISchell, Ehrlund etc.) or maybe a bridge foot pickup (I prefer the Shadow SH-965NFX with only the foil on the bass foot mounted and connected).
Specially the top mounted pickups are much less direct than bridge mounted pickups and could be varied in directness vs. distance by distance from the bridge near the bass bar.

 

[rickwolff]

Just to add something and not misleading you:

If your acoustic tone is nice and not too direct, leave bridge and soundpost where they are and get a top mounted pickup (MSP, ISchell, Ehrlund etc.) or maybe a bridge foot pickup (I prefer the Shadow SH-965NFX with only the foil on the bass foot mounted and connected).
Specially the top mounted pickups are much less direct than bridge mounted pickups and could be varied in directness vs. distance by distance from the bridge near the bass bar.

+1 on the top mounted pickup (or mic). HOWEVER, YOU DON'T MENTION IF YOU UPTON STANDARD IS LAMINATE, HYBRID OR CARVED.

If it is a hybrid or carved I would suggest trying the Ischell. There was a thread on it not long ago and testers had mixed results, but it has proven to be trouble free for me and sounds like my bass (not like the pickup). I have not had any problem with feedback although admittedly I haven't played any really loud gigs with it yet. When things get 'really loud' I don't see any point in trying to amplify the acoustic sound of my bass any longer and usually use my ply bass with a Lifeline and a Krivo.

But if you are playing music where you and the audience will be able to hear and appreciate the true acoustic sound of your bass I would stongly recommend trying the Ischell if you have a sold top bass (hybrid or carved.) If it doesn't work for you just send it back for a refund.

 

[damonsmith]

I currently am using a Zyex set that came on my Upton, but am thinking of trying something different for my next set. The type of tone i am looking for is warm and dark, kind of that "indirect" sound of the bass you hear from farther away. I want this type of tone to translate through piezo pickup into my amp. Pretty much what i tend to hear on classic jazz records. I realize this type of tone could purely be the result of how the bass was recorded(mic out front).

A few thoughts roaming in my brain:

-Would it make sense to use orchestral strings to achieve this goal? Would a stiffer string achieve what i am looking for? I play pretty hard pizz, and sometimes the Zyex seem to have too much give to take it. My string height is fairly high already.

-Would i just be seeking a heavier set hybrid string that my current Zyex set? I believe the ones i have now are lights..but not totally positive.

-Would guts give me what i want?

Keep in mind that getting this sound in the living room is one thing, on gigs you will be buried by drummers!

 

[fantasticplanet]

It is true that the sound of the instrument can only be captured by a distant mic, but this does not help with amplification.
Strings can influence the sound and sustain, but I don't think they vary the distance reception of the listener.
I once had the soundpost close to the bridge foot, getting a very direct sound. By repositioning it a bit more away from the soundpost, the sound was less direct and more mellow. A lot nicer with the bow, a bit less powerful plucked.
You can simulate that before running to your luthier by moving the bridge a bit (up to an inch) closer to the fingerboard. If you like that "sound distance", you might want to see your luthier.
If it's not dark enough, try changing playing technique as described before and as the last attempt try other strings.
Orchestrals generally have a short sustain, but it depends on string type.

that soundpost thing is cool, when i got my upright it wasn't resonating as much as i wanted so i got a soundpost with a smaller radius and moved it a little closer to the bridge. it sounds so much better.

 

[martinc]

"Warm and dark" is pretty well the way my Zyex and Zyex Lights sounded on my laminated Eberle.

I would mess around with your string height for a while to see if that helps. Then try moving the soundpost slightly. These suggestions could cost you waaaaay less than flailing around trying different strings.

 

[geoffbassist]

I would go Evah orchestra (regular) gauge. They are dark but still work great for jazz... I prefer the Evah weichs as they are a touch brighter than the Evah Orch which I like and I also prefer a lighter gauge..... but if you want a heavier string than the zyex lights then the Evah orchs would be a good fit. Dark, thick tone and easy to bow. I think they are a very cool set if you are happy with the higher tension/darker tone.

I've always loved the acoustic tone of Belcanto for pizz, but like all orchestra strings I've never been able to make them work amplified. I know some guys make that work, but I've always found it didn't work for me on amplified gigs.

 

[DoubleMIDI]

I would go Evah orchestra (regular) gauge. They are dark but still work great for jazz...

Well, that might depend...

A used set of Evah regulars I had for a few days before I gave it back was absolutely dull and with very short sustain. Absolutely unusable for jazz IMHO.
The used Evah Weich I got later worked well on the same instrument.

So I think the Evah Weich are safer for pizz and arco than the the regular Evahs.

 

[misterbadger]

My Upton hybrid came with Evah mediums and it sounds great. Nice presence, decent sustain, warm. I'm a string-o-holic by nature and have a lot of different sets around (including Evah weichs), but haven't been tempted to try anything else. Yet.

 

[dkimbrobass]

I love the Kaplans by D'addario. They aren't recommended for pizz, and I thought I hated them at first, until I heard them on a record, and heard them through an amp, and the FOH engineer said, "dude, your bass sounded amazing tonight." But every bass if different, and there are a lot of great strings out there. Good luck. DK

 

[sean_on_bass]

+1 on the top mounted pickup (or mic). HOWEVER, YOU DON'T MENTION IF YOU UPTON STANDARD IS LAMINATE, HYBRID OR CARVED.

If it is a hybrid or carved I would suggest trying the Ischell. There was a thread on it not long ago and testers had mixed results, but it has proven to be trouble free for me and sounds like my bass (not like the pickup). I have not had any problem with feedback although admittedly I haven't played any really loud gigs with it yet. When things get 'really loud' I don't see any point in trying to amplify the acoustic sound of my bass any longer and usually use my ply bass with a Lifeline and a Krivo.

But if you are playing music where you and the audience will be able to hear and appreciate the true acoustic sound of your bass I would stongly recommend trying the Ischell if you have a sold top bass (hybrid or carved.) If it doesn't work for you just send it back for a refund.

I have an Upton Standard ply with the Rev Solo pickup installed into the bridge. I also have a realist for under the bridge foot that i used on my rental, but have not yet tried with my Upton Standard. I really like the concept of the Erlund, so that may be an investment in the future when i have some cash to burn. Do they tolerate ply basses well?

I like some of the setup based ideas presented. Honestly, the way Zyex strings are described usually is pretty much what i am looking for, so maybe trying other things with my current set is something to do before delving into new string choices.

Luckily none of the 3 projects i am in have drummers. All play 20's/30's/40's jazz generally and one is a ragtime duo.