Wanting to go amp-less

[JoelFT]

My band has just upgraded our PA to two QSC KW181's and two QSC KW153's. Each one is a 1000 watt powered cab for a total of 4000 watts. The KW153's send 500 watts to the 15 and 500 to the mid and tweeter. I'm not real familiar with the board yet but it is an all digital Behringer so each of us can run our own monitor mix from our iPads.

So, here is my question, with this setup would I be able to comfortably go amp-less at our gigs? We currently just play small to medium size bars that hold roughly 300 people. Our musical style is mostly rock and funk. We can get loud right now but, since we are all middle-aged we prefer to keep the volume more manageable.

 

[morgansterne]

With subs like that you could go ampless for sure. you still need good monitoring though. I play ampless with my keyboard band and use iems.
The band I play bass in just got a behringer xr18 mixer. At rehearsal I play thru a hartke b60 combo plus pa support. That's almost ampless.

 

[Dash Lashes]

I couldn't fathom going ampless or using ipads. I consider amps to be instruments in themselves. To me, the sonic characteristic of an amp is mainly what electric bass even is!

Who/what is going to be in control of the bass tone? Any pedals or compressors or anything?

Your rig seems futuristic. Good luck!

 

[s0c9]

I couldn't fathom going ampless or using ipads. I consider amps to be instruments in themselves. To me, the sonic characteristic of an amp is mainly what electric bass even is!

Who/what is going to be in control of the bass tone? Any pedals or compressors or anything?

Your rig seems futuristic. Good luck!

I guess it's what your used to, or willing to try.
There's all kinds of things one can do with EQ and plugins on today consoles to get that "tone". And yes, one can still use pedals ahead of a DI.

I've played ampless (via DI) at church for about 8 yrs now... monitor IEM via Aviom system. Only needing to take my bass beats the heck out of lugging gear.

My current band is NOT ampless, but if it weren't for the guitar players who have the same "challenges" you listed above and need to hear that bass on stage, I'd have no problem going ampless there either. I have quad-driver IEM's and can get silly amounts of bass in my ears... and I keep the level in my IEM's low enough to hear the bass "ambience" from the PA also.. the whole "feel" is not really that much different than having an amp. I guess I've got used to it, and have no problems playing like that - as long as I can monitor it.

Obviously, the OP has the PA and physical ability to do that.. the rest is in ones head.
YMMV

 

[Esquillama]

Yes, you can definitely go ampless with your band's Pa. BUT, the important thing is your monitor. I've been ampless for about 9 years now gigging in clubs, bars, casinos and outdoor fair-type events. We are completely direct, guitar, bass, keys, drums, vocals all come through the monitor. We don't use in-ears, we have floor wedges and not a digital board but a good old fashioned Peavey 16 channel powered board that supplies power for our monitors.

I have a Carvin monitor with a 15 and a horn and it works fine for me. I also wear custom molded audiologist earplugs at EVERY gig. I can hear all instruments and vocals just fine and everyone can hear me in the monitors. As was mentioned above, everyone has their individual likes/needs for playing live. If you've got the monitoring capabilities, you should definitely try it out and see how you feel about it. I've never looked back. I don't miss hauling in a 2x10 and a 1x15 and a rack full of equipment.

I've just recently (this weekend actually) started using my new setup. A Sampson pedal style wireless with the "bug" type transmitter, a XVive Pt-03 tuner, monoprice compressor, and monoprice mini di. The tuner, compressor, and di are all 1590a size and the wireless receiver is regular pedal size. They all are mounted on a mini music stand that attaches to my guitar stand and I just run an xlr to the board. It sounds big and solid out front, and I get a really good sound out of my monitor.

It sounds like you've got the ability to tweak the sound to your liking, you should be fine if the rest of your bandmates can also hear your signal. Give it a try, you might like it. Then again, you might not. At least you'll know whether it's for you and your band or not. If it turns out that you do like it, enjoy the conveniences of hauling less gear, shorter setup and teardown times, more room and a cleaner look on stage, and easier mixing out front because of not needing to compete with stage volume.

 

[JoelFT]

Only thing I'm concerned about is whether the PA itself has the juice to carry everything. My current rig is very transparent. I do almost all of my tone shaping on my pedal board prior to the amp. Chances are that I'll use a REDDI as the DI.

I purposely built my rig to be as colorless as possible. It is either a Genz Benz SM 9.2 or a GBE 1200 depending on the gig and two Uber Quads. Our old PA was just two kw112s and subs. There wasn't enough oomph to carry my bass by itself. So, I had to crank my amp and go with loud stage volumes. I'm hoping that the new one will take care of that. And yes, I will be using some very nice IEMs.

 

[s0c9]

Only thing I'm concerned about is whether the PA itself has the juice to carry everything. My current rig is very transparent. I do almost all of my tone shaping on my pedal board prior to the amp. Chances are that I'll use a REDDI as the DI.

I purposely built my rig to be as colorless as possible. It is either a Genz Benz SM 9.2 or a GBE 1200 depending on the gig and two Uber Quads. Our old PA was just two kw112s and subs. There wasn't enough oomph to carry my bass by itself. So, I had to crank my amp and go with loud stage volumes. I'm hoping that the new one will take care of that. And yes, I will be using some very nice IEMs.

The PA has the power for typical club/bar venues... unless they are huge, or you are doing larger outdoor gigs..
There has to be a trade-off between your sound and what it sounds like in the PA - they are not the same thing... different listening positions, room dynamics, EQ, speakers, and so on...
I commented on it more in this thread.. YMMV.
Confused about DI | TalkBass.com

 

[BassGuyFL]

With that PA setup there's shouldn't be any problem being heard that's a good bit of power.

Your main issue will be monitoring which you seem to have a handle on. Also somewhere in your signal chain you should have a decent DI weather off your amp or a standalone. I have mine (Radial JDI) on my pedalboard at the end of my effects so it gets my effected tones as well.

One thing I'd recommend is investing in the Behringer P16 monitor control. A band I work for has them and everyone can control their own mix and it works great just need one cat5 cable and a TRS-XLR cable to hook it up.

Behringer Powerplay P16-M Personal Mixer | Sweetwater.com

 

[Geri O]

As for monitoring with the X32 or other Behringer mixers, so far with the two bands I work with, we've had good luck with the iOS and the android apps that the players can download and use to control their own mix. There's nothing like the look on a player's face when they control their own mix for the first time.

However, I'd like to move to the P16 system later on. There's battery life issues with the phones and tablets, tethering to the charger is kinda clumsy, where do you plant the device, the size of the device (for crying out loud, don't try it with an iPhone 4S - from the guy with a 6+...), and I suspect before long, there will be a wifi issue, but not so far.

I've never considered my amp as part of the instrument. How do you deal with that in the studio? My favorite way to record has been straight to a good DI and let the engineer do his thing. I've always love playing on headphones or good studio monitors. And a lot of times, the amp was just an annoying way to hear myself onstage. I love an SVT and my EBS rig as much as anyone, but the bass is the instrument and I'm good with an amp or IEMs. I won't knock the chap that mentioned the amp being part of the instrument. Whatever works. But I don't tie myself to that.

I went with my own mixer (an X32 so I could handle the monitor chores of whoever I'm playing with. I have the monitor mixing chops left over from a long pro sound career and it's easier than ever for a band to go self-contained, so why not. If we do a festival, we'll (eventually) have our own mics, DIs, stands, cables, looms, subsnakes, and a split where I can hit my X32 and hand the PA company a set of tails to their snake and ask for 2 20amp circuits. Earlier last year, I played 3 gigs where the PA company roasted us with the monitors (one of them was the company I worked for, that Monday morning meeting was not pretty). I vowed, never again! I don't have quite everything just yet, but we have everything we need between the players in the bands. This gigs where I used the X32 have been the most enjoyable gigs yet (after a short set-up session to make it all happen). Set it, forget it, and just play! And being able to do live multi-track recordings of the band to my MacBook? Get Out!!

Good times, indeed.

 

[s0c9]

However, I'd like to move to the P16 system later on. There's battery life issues with the phones and tablets, tethering to the charger is kinda clumsy, where do you plant the device, the size of the device (for crying out loud, don't try it with an iPhone 4S - from the guy with a 6+...), and I suspect before long, there will be a wifi issue, but not so far.

Been there, done that with the P16 system... it's basically an Aviom equivalent. In my case I used it for weekly gigs for 3 of us (in a 6 piece) for about 6+ months.

PROS: local control, stereo, built-in limiting, individual mix, tone controls (better than Aviom) etc.
CONS: CAT5 at every gig, additional cabling needed it you are wireless IEM's, and more..

I ran 2 8-ch Dsub-to-1/4" cables from back of Presonus 16.4.2 into P16I - the sending unit. From there, I ran 2 CAT5/6 cables. The 3rd unit was daisy-chained via CAT5. When connected to the P16I, each P16M will power itself over CAT5. If you daisy chain (and you can daisy-chain a TON of them) each P16M beyond the 1st in the chain requires a power source. The CAT5 power does NOT chain. There's limit of 6 P16M's that can be CAT5 powered by the P16I. And.. I left ch16 unhooked, and fed the drummers click-track into ch16 on the P16I. That meant any of us could hear the click track by bumping up 16 on the P16M.. or not. I chose not to..

I had my P16M on top of my bass amp, with my Carvin EM900 xmitter underneath it. I normally play wireless in/out. So, I had CAT5 to P16M, L/R patch cables from P16M to EM900. I could lean over and adjust each of 16 channels as needed. It worked well, but it was basically more crap (pieces parts) to carry around and set up at each gig. For a church setting, absolutely great! Using them at one of my church gigs..

Now.. I'm STILL all wireless. The X32 XLR feeds go into the rack-mounted EM900, and I now control my IEM mix via Ipad (no battery issues yet).. which sits on top of my amp.. fewer pieces parts.. power up the rack (with X32) and go.

PS: I still have the the P16I and 2 P16M's Geri
I'll make ya a deal..

 

[morgansterne]

I couldn't fathom going ampless or using ipads. I consider amps to be instruments in themselves. To me, the sonic characteristic of an amp is mainly what electric bass even is!

Who/what is going to be in control of the bass tone? Any pedals or compressors or anything?

Your rig seems futuristic. Good luck!

I use a zoom b3 pedal. I'm not super impressed with its other effects but the amp sims sound good to me.

 

[Esquillama]

Here's my current set up. I'll be playing my second show with it Saturday night.

 

[Geri O]

Been there, done that with the P16 system... it's basically an Aviom equivalent. In my case I used it for weekly gigs for 3 of us (in a 6 piece) for about 6+ months.

PROS: local control, stereo, built-in limiting, individual mix, tone controls (better than Aviom) etc.
CONS: CAT5 at every gig, additional cabling needed it you are wireless IEM's, and more..

I ran 2 8-ch Dsub-to-1/4" cables from back of Presonus 16.4.2 into P16I - the sending unit. From there, I ran 2 CAT5/6 cables. The 3rd unit was daisy-chained via CAT5. When connected to the P16I, each P16M will power itself over CAT5. If you daisy chain (and you can daisy-chain a TON of them) each P16M beyond the 1st in the chain requires a power source. The CAT5 power does NOT chain. There's limit of 6 P16M's that can be CAT5 powered by the P16I. And.. I left ch16 unhooked, and fed the drummers click-track into ch16 on the P16I. That meant any of us could hear the click track by bumping up 16 on the P16M.. or not. I chose not to..

I had my P16M on top of my bass amp, with my Carvin EM900 xmitter underneath it. I normally play wireless in/out. So, I had CAT5 to P16M, L/R patch cables from P16M to EM900. I could lean over and adjust each of 16 channels as needed. It worked well, but it was basically more crap (pieces parts) to carry around and set up at each gig. For a church setting, absolutely great! Using them at one of my church gigs..

Now.. I'm STILL all wireless. The X32 XLR feeds go into the rack-mounted EM900, and I now control my IEM mix via Ipad (no battery issues yet).. which sits on top of my amp.. fewer pieces parts.. power up the rack (with X32) and go.

View attachment 569521

PS: I still have the the P16I and 2 P16M's Geri
I'll make ya a deal..

Dang, don't know why I'm just seeing this...

Since I posted the above, it seems that the iOS and Android device use has gotten popular with my guys and I may not go the P16 route, but I'll let ya know if I change my mind...

I am considering getting a couple of channels of it, mainly for keyboard players and drummers.

But right now, after making mic cables and power cables, buying mics and stands, and generally bleeding money for the past couple of months, I wanna forget about all of that and just play bass for a few days. The investment is already paying off, though, no doubt.

 

[JoelFT]

I use a zoom b3 pedal. I'm not super impressed with its other effects but the amp sims sound good to me.

I also have a B3 that I just use to play around with in the basement. Maybe I'll try using it as a di.

 

[SteveC]

Go ampless and go IEM. We do and LOVE IT!

 

[JoelFT]

Steve, what kind of IEMs do you use?

 

[SteveC]

Steve, what kind of IEMs do you use?

I use Westone UM-2's but they have been replaced by a new model. They are really nice. Dual driver. Fit great. They were about $250. Best money I've ever spent in gear. I run my monitor send from the board throughg a Rolls PM50S. Works great. We all use the Rolls as we don't need wireless. Cheap and pretty versatile. Silent stage and we love it.

The FOH is 8 flown JBL (2 pair of 4) for tops and 4 (2 pair) 18" subs on either side. We mix via iPhone and music via iPad.

 

[s0c9]

Steve, what kind of IEMs do you use?

Out 5-piece went all IEM for about 4-5 months - about 20-30 gigs...
I already owned a Carvin EM900 system with 1964 Quads (Qi) when they decided to buy four PSM200 rigs. We rack mounted all 5 transmitters. We use 5 busses on the X32 to send mono mixes to each transmitter (PSM200 is mono only, Carvin is stereo), and each of us control our individual IEM mix via i-devices (iPad, iPhone, iPad-mini, etc.)

However, the 2 guitar players could not get used to the single driver buds (E215) included with the PSM.

They complained that they couldn't hear each other, so we now have 2 wedges and their [tube] amps on stage. As a guitar player (before I moved to bass) I have experienced that issue with single driver buds from guitar tones being too close to each other (no separation) so you can't tell which is which... running L/R (stereo) feeds can resolve that, but the PSM200 is mono only. They didn't want to sink more $$ into multi-driver custom molds (the E215 are universal fit) or upgrade the PSM's - on the chance it may not solve their problem, so they sold their IEM rigs and went back to wedges. :***:

The drummer, lead vox and me (bass) are still ears, and we love them... it's the only way drummer can really hear the others in the mix. Those 1964 Quads have so much bass capability, its silly!

 

[s0c9]

Dang, don't know why I'm just seeing this...

Since I posted the above, it seems that the iOS and Android device use has gotten popular with my guys and I may not go the P16 route, but I'll let ya know if I change my mind...

I am considering getting a couple of channels of it, mainly for keyboard players and drummers.

I hear ya.. let me know. Mint condition.. I look after my gear... I can send pics, etc.

 

[musicman7722]

I also have a B3 that I just use to play around with in the basement. Maybe I'll try using it as a di.

I am ampless and the B# is great. I use the sans amp sim with mids up and an svt together. Love it.