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Watts RMS, Program, Peak

It can be very confusing for a young player, just getting into all this stuff, but TB is a great place to learn before you start blowing spkrs. On top of the confusion re: wattage, there's so much more, and it only gets more complicated. Honest numbers would be a good start, but the younguns would still need to work out all the other stuff, impedance, eq, volume, good/bad spkr pairings, etc. But, we all had to learn somewhere, and it wasn't always as easy as it is now.
 
In addition to T-Bird's excellent analysis, you can look at RMS as the "safest" of the three, in terms of power handling. The actual wattage a speaker can handle depends on the frequencies it's being fed, the envelope of the notes (percussive vs. smooth), and how much of the time the speaker is up near its maximum abilities, and other factors.

So you can look at the RMS rating as the most general guideline of what to expect from the cab without having to think about it too much. With knowledge and caution it is possible to use a 1000 W amp with a cab rated for only 200 W, and there's nothing wrong with connecting a 200 W amp to a cab rated for 1000 W; so the numbers don't mean very much at all, except again as a rough guide for when you need a quick idea of what the cab is supposed to do.
Looking to buy a new head; I have an Ampeg 810 with a Power Handling rating of 800rms. Would it be ideal to stick with an 800w head or can I still upgrade to something with more power like a 1500 or 2000w head without damaging my cab? Btw, I love your blog!

Best, Steen.
 
I have an Ampeg 810 with a Power Handling rating of 800rms. Would it be ideal to stick with an 800w head or can I still upgrade to something with more power like a 1500 or 2000w head without damaging my cab?

Are you going to crank the amp so much that either quoted (probably thermal maximum) power rating or maximum cone excursion becomes exceeded?.... That's the answer to your question.

Oh, I probably should mention that those attributes are way too difficult to define in practice without actual and careful measurements of how much power you are actually pushing to the speakers and how much it effects their essential behaviour like cone travel or voice coil temperature... Does it seem like the speaker's going to overheat and deform the voice coil, rip off the cone from its surroundings, etc...?

All that is damn hard to estimate just by plain numbers. You must know how much power your amp is REALLY putting out and how speaker x will behave when driven with such power. And you probably won't find ANY information about the latter attiribute from anywhere.

Thus plain "power ratings" are often more or less useless unless used for rules of thumbs like "to stay on the safe side don't choose speakers with less power handling than what your amp is capable of putting out". And even then you can't always be sure.
 
I'll try to keep this simple, but it's actually a crucially important topic in AC electrical / electronic engineering and it's helpful to have a working understanding of it when you're shopping for gear. If anyone finds any BS in this post, oh god please say so.

Peak is the upper excursion of an AC waveform, either positive or negative. Think of it as "absolute distance from zero." Peak-to-peak is the distance between the positive and negative waveform peaks both.

If you're sitting at 0, and you have a waveform lift your voltage by 10 volts to +10, you have a 10 volt peak.

If you're sitting at 0, and you have a waveform drop your voltage by 10 volts to -10, you have a 10 volt peak.

If you have both happen, you have a peak-to-peak of 20 volts.

Watts = volts * amperes. That means that if, say, you have 1 ampere flowing at each peak, you have 10 watts positive and 10 watts negative, for a total of 20 watts peak-to-peak.

If your amp is putting out 100W peak at, say, 50 volts, you're putting out 2 amperes of current at the peaks and 70.7W RMS.

If your speaker is seeing 4 amps of current, and you're pushing it to 100W, your amp is swinging 25 volts at the output.

Watts, voltage, and amps are all often expressed in terms of peak, peak-to-peak, and RMS.

RMS is similar to the "average power" rating some manufacturers quote, but is actually somewhat lower. Average power is the average wattage output over a given amount of time. As far as I know, there is no standard for this and this rating is garbage. Never even bother to read it. Marketing people like it better than RMS because it's always bigger.

Peak is RMS * 1.414
RMS is peak * .707
RMS is also (peak-to-peak / 2) * .707

Still with me?

1.414 is the square root of 2 out to 3 decimals. That's what the "Root Mean Square" stands for.

If a cab is rated for, say, 100W RMS, it should take 1.414 * 100W, or, 141.4W peak, all day.

If a cab is rated for 500W peak, it's also rated for 500 * .707 watts, or 353.5W RMS.

Peak-to-peak is twice peak, so divide peak-to-peak by two and the multiply by .707 to find the RMS rating if they give this figure.

So what does it mean?

The RMS rating is what your cab is designed to handle all day without getting too warm. It's your "ideal dissipation," and is often called "continuous power." Many manufacturers fudge these figures, so take published specs with a grain of salt. No spec sheet can tell you if your amp will sound good with any cab.

A speaker can take a lot more power in transient peaks that don't last but a few milliseconds than they can take constantly. Hence the peak and RMS ratings.

I'm a bass player, not a hi-fi nerd, so I don't give a $%& about slew rates and other esoteric BS that a musician isn't worried about. I just want to know if my amp will blow up this cab or not, and if the cab can reproduce the frequencies I want to hear. For that I look at the RMS rating and the frequency response graph, and that's it.
 
Are you going to crank the amp so much that either quoted (probably thermal maximum) power rating or maximum cone excursion becomes exceeded?.... That's the answer to your question.

Oh, I probably should mention that those attributes are way too difficult to define in practice without actual and careful measurements of how much power you are actually pushing to the speakers and how much it effects their essential behaviour like cone travel or voice coil temperature... Does it seem like the speaker's going to overheat and deform the voice coil, rip off the cone from its surroundings, etc...?

All that is damn hard to estimate just by plain numbers. You must know how much power your amp is REALLY putting out and how speaker x will behave when driven with such power. And you probably won't find ANY information about the latter attiribute from anywhere.

Thus plain "power ratings" are often more or less useless unless used for rules of thumbs like "to stay on the safe side don't choose speakers with less power handling than what your amp is capable of putting out". And even then you can't always be sure.

^^ this too.
 
The short version is quite simple really. None of these numbers BY THEMSELVES tell you much at all. Not JUST X max, not JUST RMS watts ratings, not JUST program power rating, not JUST power output rating of the amp, none of them. As explained by much smarter guys than me in this very thread, it's a combination of a lot of factors that go into the overall picking-the-right-speaker game. It involves all kinds of ratings on the speaker, all kinds of data on the amp, and all kinds of physics of the cab, and lest we forget what you want out of them as the end product (tone and volume requirements).

This is why I usually call the guys a US Speaker and get them to run the numbers. I tell them what the amp is, the dimensions of the cab and ports (if any), and what I am trying to do with the overall picture. They offer up a few suggestions and we talk about it until a LOGICAL conclusion is reached. It has worked every time so far. The last project I did, the guy spent over a half hour on the phone with me helping me pick out four tens to put in a cab I was refurbing. The cab sounds freaking incredible. And I don't have to have a degree in physics! Win win!
 
Peak is RMS * 1.414
RMS is peak * .707
RMS is also (peak-to-peak / 2) * .707

Still with me?

1.414 is the square root of 2 out to 3 decimals. That's what the "Root Mean Square" stands for.

If a cab is rated for, say, 100W RMS, it should take 1.414 * 100W, or, 141.4W peak, all day.

If a cab is rated for 500W peak, it's also rated for 500 * .707 watts, or 353.5W RMS.

Peak-to-peak is twice peak, so divide peak-to-peak by two and the multiply by .707 to find the RMS rating if they give this figure.

You can't apply these numbers to power. RMS voltage or current is 0.707 of the peak value. There is no such thing as an RMS watt, and even if there was you'd have to use a factor of 0.5 (0.707 squared).
 
Looking to buy a new head; I have an Ampeg 810 with a Power Handling rating of 800rms. Would it be ideal to stick with an 800w head or can I still upgrade to something with more power like a 1500 or 2000w head without damaging my cab?
Well, it's like I said in the bit you quoted, "with knowledge and caution" you can use any amp rated for much higher wattage than the cab.

The knowledge part is actually quite difficult, because even top-flight professionals disagree about all the technical aspects. I try to read as many of their statements as I can, and average them out to get a useful understanding.

The caution part is fairly easy: you listen to your speakers, and if they make any farting, buzzing, or other distressing sounds, you turn down the amp until the noises stop. This is the deal whether your amp is 200 W or 2000 W. It's more difficult to hear the buzz/fart if you play with an overdriven tone normally, so it might be best to spend time testing those volume limits with a clean tone.

Remember that even if you get a cab rated for the same wattage as the amp, you can still easily blow the speakers. The numbers are only a vague general guideline. The amp can be driven to put out much higher wattage than its rating, and an average speaker will fart out from low frequencies at wattage much lower than its rating.
 
Was there ever an EIA standard mandated for "Program" to make it somewhat reliable JT?

I don't think it was actually developed by the EIA, but a spec was originally called 'dynamic headroom and they found this by driving the amp to the amp's rated output, then creating a transient that would often cause amps with weak power supplies to clip, and it separated the good from the bad. Some amps produced 0dB dynamic headroom and some were able to produce >3dB. Around the time this was beginning to be used by mainstream audio manufacturers, Class G (or Class H, in the case of some brands) became available.

I have seen power amps that could drive difficult loads, some that couldn't do squat and some in the middle. I was discussing this with someone who's also in the audio/video industry today and IMO, the consumer audio industry is scamming their way through life. Sure, some equipment is really good but generally, they make it so the fools who are cowed by big numbers, fancy terminology and shining lights will be impressed, even if they don't have a clue about what this stuff does, is or can do. The original Peavey CS-800 came with a sheet that had test info on it- each one went through the procedure before it was shipped and IIRC, they guaranteed the specs, even if it was tested by a third party (as long as the test was done according to industry norms). They tested these into 2, 4 and 8 Ohms and the results were impressive. I wish all consumer audio equipment could beat the advertised power spec by 15% as easily and drive low Z loads. Most of the crap out there, even if it's called "better than average", can't drive 4 Ohms well and it's not recommended that 4 Ohm loads are used. After the conversation with a regional service center tech, I'm not optimistic that this will change anytime soon. They service most brands, including musical instrument/PA gear. The MI/PA stuff generally lives up to the specs.
 
I'll try to keep this simple, but it's actually a crucially important topic in AC electrical / electronic engineering and it's helpful to have a working understanding of it when you're shopping for gear. If anyone finds any BS in this post, oh god please say so.

Peak is the upper excursion of an AC waveform, either positive or negative. Think of it as "absolute distance from zero." Peak-to-peak is the distance between the positive and negative waveform peaks both.

If you're sitting at 0, and you have a waveform lift your voltage by 10 volts to +10, you have a 10 volt peak.

If you're sitting at 0, and you have a waveform drop your voltage by 10 volts to -10, you have a 10 volt peak.

If you have both happen, you have a peak-to-peak of 20 volts.

So far so good.

Watts = volts * amperes. That means that if, say, you have 1 ampere flowing at each peak, you have 10 watts positive and 10 watts negative, for a total of 20 watts peak-to-peak.

This means that you would have a speaker with an impedance of 10 ohms and the peak current is 1 amp peak. All of these relate to each other using Ohm's laws, but you need to keep units straight.

If your amp is putting out 100W peak at, say, 50 volts, you're putting out 2 amperes of current at the peaks and 70.7W RMS.

Here's where things start going wrong. If you have 50 volts peak, you would have (50/1.414)Vrms = 35.3Vrms and your power based on RMS value will be 50 watts. You missed the squared factor in the power equation... if you use 2 amps peak, you need to also convert the current to RMS, use (2/1.414)Arms = 1.414A... now 35.5Vrms x 1.414Arms = 50 watts based on RMS measurements.

If your speaker is seeing 4 amps of current, and you're pushing it to 100W, your amp is swinging 25 volts at the output.

Without defining peak, or RMS measurements, power is no longer defined.

Watts, voltage, and amps are all often expressed in terms of peak, peak-to-peak, and RMS.

Peak has no practical value to a periodic bipolar waveform, and all (common) audio measurements are made using either peak to peak, or RMS measurements when describing periodic bipolar waveforms. This also makes the math more consistent.

RMS is similar to the "average power" rating some manufacturers quote, but is actually somewhat lower. Average power is the average wattage output over a given amount of time. As far as I know, there is no standard for this and this rating is garbage. Never even bother to read it. Marketing people like it better than RMS because it's always bigger.

This is not accurate. For a non-distorted sinusoidal waveform, the average and the RMS rating will be identical. Where average and RMS diverge is when the waveform is distorted, contains additional harmonic elements or has a different peak voltage than a pure sinusoid would have. There are also differences in how meters read distorted waveforms depending on the algorithems used to detect and calculate the measurement. What "RMS power" (power based on RMS voltage and current measurements) really means is the effective heating capacity of the waveform.

Peak is RMS * 1.414
RMS is peak * .707
RMS is also (peak-to-peak / 2) * .707

Still with me?

1.414 is the square root of 2 out to 3 decimals. That's what the "Root Mean Square" stands for.

Whoa here, it's a whole lot different than this. Here's a pretty good link showing what it really means and how/why it's used: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Root_mean_square

If a cab is rated for, say, 100W RMS, it should take 1.414 * 100W, or, 141.4W peak, all day.

If a cab is rated for 500W peak, it's also rated for 500 * .707 watts, or 353.5W RMS.

Nope, that pesky squared factor got dropped from your voltage/current equation. BOTH need to be expressed as RMS values and then when you multiply the RMSxRMS (which become the squared factor in the V**/R or I**2R power equationa, factors you get 1.414 x 1.414 or 2. So peak power = 2x "RMS power".

Peak-to-peak is twice peak, so divide peak-to-peak by two and the multiply by .707 to find the RMS rating if they give this figure.

Nope, again you have crossed units up and need to specify if you mean voltage or power.

So what does it mean?

The RMS rating is what your cab is designed to handle all day without getting too warm. It's your "ideal dissipation," and is often called "continuous power." Many manufacturers fudge these figures, so take published specs with a grain of salt. No spec sheet can tell you if your amp will sound good with any cab.

Generally, this is the power that a speaker can handle over an extended period of time (the time period is an essential part of this by the way) but this too is a function of frequency as there are specific cooling effects that are present at lower frequencies but do not exist at frequencies above say 300-500Hz. Fortunately, most bass guitar signals exhibit falling power with frequency... this is not true with many guitar signals however.

A speaker can take a lot more power in transient peaks that don't last but a few milliseconds than they can take constantly. Hence the peak and RMS ratings.

I'm a bass player, not a hi-fi nerd, so I don't give a $%& about slew rates and other esoteric BS that a musician isn't worried about. I just want to know if my amp will blow up this cab or not, and if the cab can reproduce the frequencies I want to hear. For that I look at the RMS rating and the frequency response graph, and that's it.

First of all, the industry accepeted meanings of peak, program and RMS have not been discussed and all of this is being taken out of context. I will discuss what these 3 ratings GENERALLY mean in another post.

IMO, it also helps to understand what all of this means and in fact there's a lot more that goes into developing a meaningful speaker rating, one that holds up to REASONABLE expectations under REASONABLE use in the real world.
 
Ok, it looks like some of us old farts need to reach back into our historical mental archives here to explain what peak, program and "RMS" power are generally accepted to mean and why they developed common useage. I'll give it a first attempt, there are other paths that led to this as well that some of the other older engineers may remember... and maybe fought over with their respective marketing departments.

First of all, these ratings really apply to speakers. They are an attempt to simply quantify power handlig in an easily (or more easily) marketed way. Unfortunately, the marketing guys get a hold of these numbers and scramble their meanings under some circumstances.

The "RMS" power is a thermal power rating that is based on RMS voltage and RMS current. There really is no RMS power, it means power based on or calculated from RMS measurements. In a speaker, it is generally accepted to mean the thermal power handling of a speaker based on a specific signal (typically bandwidth limited pink noise with a specified crest factor) for a specific amount of time after which the TS parameters have not shifted more than X% and that (obviously) the speaker has not failed. It may be damaged however depending on that manufacture's definition of TS shift.

Program power is generally defined as 2x the "RMS power". The reason for this is that music has dynamic range, and 3dB of dynamic range is the number that the industry has pretty much accepted because most limitations are mechanical (in LF drivers certainly) and 2x the thermal limits is often pretty close to mechanical limits. Where this goes horribly wrong is in vented boxes below the tuning frequency, and in horn loaded boxes below the cutoff frequency of the horn. This is why just assuming that it['s safe using an amp rated to deliver as much as the program power rating of the speaker often leads to mechanical damage of bass guitar speakers. Program power is stated using RMS units for V and I.

Peak Power is defined as twice the Program Power. This IMO is purely a marketing tool without explaining that peak power is a math conversion (RMS to Peak voltage) from program power and when you square the conversion from RMS voltage, 1.414 x 1.414 = 2. It's the same damn power expressed in different units. An amp rated as 1000 watts "RMS" delivers exactly 2000 watts peak. There is no difference, it's the same as saying 6 and 1/2-dozen.

These are all based on measurments into standard resistive loads as well.

There are other ratings as well, each one has it's merits and drawbacks. In bass guitar amps, there are other factors that may play into how big an amp sounds or feels. Things like how gracefully it handles being overdriven, the dynamic effects of the power supply, the ability to deliver adequate current to the load based on the voltage and impedance of the load (lack of artificial current limitations), in (some) class D amps, some of the reactive energy stored in the output filter elements and the stored energy in the moving speaker may be recovered back into the power supply, etc. It's much more complex than any simple number can possibly describe.
 
In my old JBL speaker manual for the " E " series it says, " We prefer the continuous sine wave method of rating the power capacity of JBL Musical Instrument loudspeakers. This laboratory standard test is far more demanding than actual performance situations, and provides a credible measure of a loudspeaker's power handling capacity." Is this RMS ?
 
RMS stands for "root mean square", and in this context it means a specific mathematical location on the vertical axis of an AC wave.

So RMS is derived from testing like sine wave testing, but RMS is just one possible way of looking at that test, one of many results.
 
In my old JBL speaker manual for the " E " series it says, " We prefer the continuous sine wave method of rating the power capacity of JBL Musical Instrument loudspeakers. This laboratory standard test is far more demanding than actual performance situations, and provides a credible measure of a loudspeaker's power handling capacity." Is this RMS ?

Yes, rms measurements are used.

I am familiar with the white paper this info came from, the reason for this info is that an amp may deliver as much as 2x it's rated power when driven into heavy clipping (common in MI applications) because the "RMS" power of a square wave is 2x that of a sine wave of equal peak voltage.
 

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