Ken Smith said:
Gotta watch the exp. date on those things, after a while they don't work so well...
Is there anywhere locally I can get your "Wax/Polish", Ken? That sounds like good stuff.
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Double Bass waxing the bass
- Thread starter soularis
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Gotta watch the exp. date on those things, after a while they don't work so well...
Is there anywhere locally I can get your "Wax/Polish", Ken? That sounds like good stuff.
Ok, I've read all those comments by Barrie Kolstein and others about never using any kind of a wax polish on a bass. That's fine-- to each his own-- there's many things Barrie says that I can't agree with.
I have used a product called "Howard's Feed 'N Wax" on my double basses for something like 20 years now. Its made of beeswax and orange peel and works like a fine preservative. Its not something I lay on every week-- more like two or three times a year, especially in the late fall when you are buttoning up the house and the furnace is coming on. This is an all-natural wood preservative and polish that keeps the instrument from drying out. And once you impregnate a soft cloth with this it can be hung over the back of a chair or table and it will basically not evaporate but keep moist indefinitely. Keep the cloth handy in your music room to wipe down the bass every once in awhile with a very thin coat.
It is also universally effective in "blending out" old nicks and scratches and can add a whole rejuvenated appearance to a scratched up old doghouse.
I can't comment scientifically on whether this product has had any impact on the sound of either of my fine European basses, except to say they sound warmer to me after repeated use of the product. But warm I like. Since there is nothing artificial in this product I doubt it would harm the varnish or finish of any musical instrument, but it is, after all, made for use on furniture-- and is most often found in Antique Malls and shops for use in rejuvenating antique wood. Since that's what I have propped up in two of the corners of my house-- antique wood-- I gave it a try. I've never regretted it.
Try it....even that old scratched up K Plywood will look like a million bucks after a coat of Howards Feed 'N Wax.
I have used a product called "Howard's Feed 'N Wax" on my double basses for something like 20 years now. Its made of beeswax and orange peel and works like a fine preservative. Its not something I lay on every week-- more like two or three times a year, especially in the late fall when you are buttoning up the house and the furnace is coming on. This is an all-natural wood preservative and polish that keeps the instrument from drying out. And once you impregnate a soft cloth with this it can be hung over the back of a chair or table and it will basically not evaporate but keep moist indefinitely. Keep the cloth handy in your music room to wipe down the bass every once in awhile with a very thin coat.
It is also universally effective in "blending out" old nicks and scratches and can add a whole rejuvenated appearance to a scratched up old doghouse.
I can't comment scientifically on whether this product has had any impact on the sound of either of my fine European basses, except to say they sound warmer to me after repeated use of the product. But warm I like. Since there is nothing artificial in this product I doubt it would harm the varnish or finish of any musical instrument, but it is, after all, made for use on furniture-- and is most often found in Antique Malls and shops for use in rejuvenating antique wood. Since that's what I have propped up in two of the corners of my house-- antique wood-- I gave it a try. I've never regretted it.
Try it....even that old scratched up K Plywood will look like a million bucks after a coat of Howards Feed 'N Wax.
I'm sure your bass looks and feels great after you've applied that wax. Paste wax applied to the body of the bass can do the same two things for your bass as it does for any other finished wood product:
1) make it slippery; and,
2) make it shiney
It cannot protect against UV light, oxidation, heat, solvents or water. It can do nothing to alter wood's propensity to seek moisture equilibrium with its environment.
1) make it slippery; and,
2) make it shiney
It cannot protect against UV light, oxidation, heat, solvents or water. It can do nothing to alter wood's propensity to seek moisture equilibrium with its environment.
Unless you're somehow able to get inside the bass to wax all the bare inside surfaces, it will certainly not prevent the instrument from drying out.STRONGBOW said:
+1. My favorite book on wood finishes is by Bob Flexner. Flexner has better scientific info than any other I've read. I've asked chemical engineers about some of the items and I have yet to find one that disagrees with him. His chapter on caring for finishes is great and debunks a lot of myths. Damon's info on wax is the same as Flexners.Damon Rondeau said:
This is not to say that wax isn't great stuff. Making the surface slippery - reducing surface tension prevents scratches and keeps dust and dirt from sticking. And it makes a surface look good. It's just not a true finish.
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Bob Rogers said:
I cribbed directly from Flexner as I wrote the post!
I used to hate finishing wood until I got that book. Then all mysteries were revealed.
Hey, I said, "to each his own...." So if you are skeptical, then DON'T try the HOWARD's product.....I'm just passing on this information because that product works great for my old basses...I've used it on an 1860 flatback for more than 30 years and while a rib-seam opens on that bass from time to time--always expertly re-glued--that fragile instrument has never developed a crack in all those years of use. The instrument has never so much as even had the top off. And it sounds frickin great...in fact, I'm gonna be buried with that bass....So I'll continue to use the beeswax-orange peel oil formula on it....it does penetrate the wood, by the way, and I'd be really worried about that if I were you...but I'm not you.
STRONGBOW said:
As I said before, I'm sure your bass looks wonderful after waxing. You've obviously been taking good care of it for a long time.
I'm certainly not saying what you're doing is a bad thing. It is misinformation, though, to claim that the wax penetrates the wood and that this penetration serves some kind of good. You may have some solvent in the paste wax mixture that gets into the wood, and I suppose by defintion it may bring some molecules of stuff that has been dissovled into it, but none of that stuff "preserves" wood.
That's just the point, bro....it AIN'T PASTE WAX, Howards product is very juicy, slimy stuff, and even when you shake it up vigorously in the bottle, it runs all over hell, which is why I got to use a cloth. It has the consistency of slimy runny snot right out of the bottle. That is how it is (remarkable) different from paste waxes......and a little bottle of this lasts ages.
It must be a MIRACLE...every time I apply this product to dry wood, I come back the next day and
its gone-- must be EVAPORATING, huh? SHEZAM! I'm so glad I got edumacated by joining this web site!
It must be a MIRACLE...every time I apply this product to dry wood, I come back the next day and
its gone-- must be EVAPORATING, huh? SHEZAM! I'm so glad I got edumacated by joining this web site!
Strogbow- Not saying that the Howard's product isn't doing a good job. Sounds like you are doing a great job of taking care of the instrument. But I don't think your explanation of why it is working is correct.
First, let me make guess as to what is in Howard's. Wax is solid and hard in its natural form at room temp. Disolve it in a little solvent (usually petroleum-distillate solvent - the same thing that "lemon oil" and other clear liquid furniture polish is made of) and you get paste wax. Add more solvent and you get a liquid wax. From what you describe, I'd guess this is what Howard's is based on, with some orange scent (maybe some actual oil, but probably very little - see if the price goes up next time there is a hard freeze in Fla.) and maybe some added coloing to help hide scratches. It's also possible that water-based solvents are added in an emulsion. (These help clean water soluble dirt.)
As far as function - solvents clean dirt. Wax protects the finish from scratching and chipping by making it slippery. Wax also adds shine and hides light scratches. Coloring agents can also hide scratches. Orange oil (if it is there) would be a very expensive solvent. Orange scent just leaves a nice smell. The finish is what protects the wood from moisture exchange and chemicals.
And yes, I would guess that what you are seeing when you come back in the morning is that the solvents have evaporated. Try putting a couple of drops on a piece of glass. I'd guess that most of the solvents will evaporate over night. Some oily solvents might take a week. After that you will be left with wax.
Solvents also soak into the wood, but they do more harm than good there. I use lemon oil (which is almost pure solvent) to clean grimy fingerboards on guitars, but I put it on and get it off as fast as possible.
First, let me make guess as to what is in Howard's. Wax is solid and hard in its natural form at room temp. Disolve it in a little solvent (usually petroleum-distillate solvent - the same thing that "lemon oil" and other clear liquid furniture polish is made of) and you get paste wax. Add more solvent and you get a liquid wax. From what you describe, I'd guess this is what Howard's is based on, with some orange scent (maybe some actual oil, but probably very little - see if the price goes up next time there is a hard freeze in Fla.) and maybe some added coloing to help hide scratches. It's also possible that water-based solvents are added in an emulsion. (These help clean water soluble dirt.)
As far as function - solvents clean dirt. Wax protects the finish from scratching and chipping by making it slippery. Wax also adds shine and hides light scratches. Coloring agents can also hide scratches. Orange oil (if it is there) would be a very expensive solvent. Orange scent just leaves a nice smell. The finish is what protects the wood from moisture exchange and chemicals.
And yes, I would guess that what you are seeing when you come back in the morning is that the solvents have evaporated. Try putting a couple of drops on a piece of glass. I'd guess that most of the solvents will evaporate over night. Some oily solvents might take a week. After that you will be left with wax.
Solvents also soak into the wood, but they do more harm than good there. I use lemon oil (which is almost pure solvent) to clean grimy fingerboards on guitars, but I put it on and get it off as fast as possible.
Pledge contains silicone, which can interfere with refinishing and (probably more importantly) glue adhesion. I don't have as much of a fetish about this is some people when it comes to solid body instruments, but I'd go with a silicone free polish on a DB.
What you say may be right...I don't know....but from all the replies on this, you seem the most qualified to get some of this slimy crap and test it yourself.
What I know is that I had places on the upper bout of my Jaeger Bass where it had been scratched by the nail on my right thumb-- an injury to the varnish incurred in the line of duty while double slapping and coming down open fisted on the E string. These were like numerous little "slice" marks that cut deep beneath the varnish and into the wood-- they were nearly white against the honey-brown varnish. Yup, Howard's completely erased the white slice marks and you wouldn't know they were ever there unless you look down at the belly from an angle in the right light where you can discern the slice marks; but from straight on, you cannot discern these at all...
Likewise, some years ago, one of my teachers-- a rather well-known, delicious-sounding east coast jazz man-- had played his fine old German bass so hard over the years he had rubbed a great big white "patch" mark into the upper bout on the E side. Every time I'd go see him I'd ask him why he didn't do anything about that ugly white patch (it was the circumfrance of a basketball, and really ugly). He told me he didn't want to go to the expense of re-finishing it and didn't know what else to do. I finally gave him a small size bottle of Howards' (it is not cheap). It did a remarkable job in hiding the ugliness. It still is worn, but now it is close in color to the original varnish....it looks like a patina now, for lack of a better word, and shows some character.
Must be majic. I nominate you to obtain some of this and do an analysis.....you only find it on the web or at antique furniture stores.
Maybe it has a bit of linseed oil in it...I don't know, but antique furniture restorers often rub an old piece down with that stuff to bring out luster and feed the wood....
What I know is that I had places on the upper bout of my Jaeger Bass where it had been scratched by the nail on my right thumb-- an injury to the varnish incurred in the line of duty while double slapping and coming down open fisted on the E string. These were like numerous little "slice" marks that cut deep beneath the varnish and into the wood-- they were nearly white against the honey-brown varnish. Yup, Howard's completely erased the white slice marks and you wouldn't know they were ever there unless you look down at the belly from an angle in the right light where you can discern the slice marks; but from straight on, you cannot discern these at all...
Likewise, some years ago, one of my teachers-- a rather well-known, delicious-sounding east coast jazz man-- had played his fine old German bass so hard over the years he had rubbed a great big white "patch" mark into the upper bout on the E side. Every time I'd go see him I'd ask him why he didn't do anything about that ugly white patch (it was the circumfrance of a basketball, and really ugly). He told me he didn't want to go to the expense of re-finishing it and didn't know what else to do. I finally gave him a small size bottle of Howards' (it is not cheap). It did a remarkable job in hiding the ugliness. It still is worn, but now it is close in color to the original varnish....it looks like a patina now, for lack of a better word, and shows some character.
Must be majic. I nominate you to obtain some of this and do an analysis.....you only find it on the web or at antique furniture stores.
Maybe it has a bit of linseed oil in it...I don't know, but antique furniture restorers often rub an old piece down with that stuff to bring out luster and feed the wood....
STRONGBOW said:
Feeding your bass anything richer than a damp rag will spoil it rotten. Soon all basses will want this stuff. Don't just think of yourself, think of all the rest of us...
I use Petz rosin cleaner on the body of the bass about once every 3-4 months. I also rub a *little* walnut oil on fresh nicks. I use Balistol gun oil on the fingerboard and, with a very short bristle brush, to clean the cogs. Balistol does pretty much eveything bar make the tea. Check it out here .
KSB - Ken Smith said:
Nope -- yours is the first mention of such a claim. His book is an excellent wood-finishing reference work and first-principles overview where previously none existed. It's true Flexner indulges in a little myth-busting -- as in the hoary old myth that there are waxes etc. that "restore oils" in wood, "feed" the wood, which is what we actually were talking about in conjunction with Flexner -- but I've found nothing but good sense in there. Highly recommended. For the total newbie interested in violin varnishes, I'd recommend starting with an overview like Flexner and then getting deeper into the esoterica of the violin somewhere else. People more qualified than me can offer references.
As Damon says, Flexner's is a very basic book. It's strength is in describing the various basic types of finishes and care products - their chemical compositions, how they work, and how they interact with other products. It talks about the differences between Shellac, Lacquer, Oil, and Varnish. Not much info on different types of varnish. I've met people with lots of "hands-on" experience whose knowledge of the chemical properties of the finish they were using came directly from the marketing department of the manufacturer of their favorite product. Flexner seems to have actually talked to some of the chemical engineers who designed them.KSB - Ken Smith said:
I completely agree with that advice and Flexner does too. But as this thread and countless others I've read show, there is a huge amount of disagreement over what cleans and what preserves a finish as well as what protects and what contaminates an unfinished area.
relax ken, I wasn't questioning you, just reiterating that the flexner book is a concise, lucid, well done introduction to wood finishing, a subject that's rife with hype and myth
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