Weak PA system - Need your recommendations please

[ZuluFoxtrot]

Recently I started playing Bass at a local church each week. I have been playing there since March now and have really enjoyed playing "live" and have enjoyed getting to know the band members.

We recently transitioned from playing in the gymnasium that had a nice IEM setup with the Aviom consoles, not perfect but definitely nice.

Now that Covid rules are relaxed (California) in our county we have been playing for the past few months in the sanctuary where everyone has or shares a stage monitor and we can adjust the levels with the Yamaha Monitor Mix app. The drummer and I share a monitor, which is some powered trash with a 6" speaker and a tweeter and looks like a pelican case.

My setup is: Bass-->Tuner Pedal-->REDDI-->FOH and I use the through on the REDDI to connect to a MB112 "personal" bass monitor. The bass, REDDI and tuner pedal is mine, the MB112 was already setup there on stage.

The church had these big JBLs setup on tall stands for house sound, which have been disconnected because they upgraded the soundboard and the Pastor thought they looked cheesy (they do).

So the ONLY speakers left in the house are 4 monitors/speakers in the ceiling/rafters. These look the same as the monitors the piano and vocalists have which are Yamahas of some type.

Earlier this week I bought a H+LP filter from Broughton (@Azure Skies) to add a low cut/HPF to my 5 string to prevent the monitors from being overloaded.

One other element is the soundboard is always tended to by a different person for rehearsal and for service, and it is never consistent how loud my bass mix is in the house.

I tend to NOT use my MB112 bass monitor (which is on the floor, on casters) facing my shins unless I absolutely cannot hear myself.

So some questions if you've made it this far:
1. Is my strategy of using the HPF "good" for this situation?
2. Is it normal to have to setup the stage monitor each week with levels that the drummer and I share? Every week it's different, it is like we are starting from scratch each week.
3. The MB112, that faces my shins because my back is nearly against a wall due to the size of the "stage", would that benefit from being elevated higher and tilted back to point at my head?

Anything else I should consider to optimize this situation?

TL;DR: House sound is anemic, bass mix is always inconsistent, different soundboard people all the time, stage monitor has really low volume and poor low frequency response, and bass combo amp points at my shins.

Thank you!
Brett

 

[juggahnaught]

Is there a reason why the IEM setup can't be taken from the gymnasium to the sanctuary?

Does the church have a digital board? Or is it analog? If it's digital, maybe just saving the settings for the monitor config would help the issue a lot. If not, dialing in optimal settings and then writing them down in a notebook or something that's left on the mixing console could be worthwhile.

If the board has a built-in highpass, that should be set at the board. Maybe that's something that could also go into the notebook. It occurs to me that the speakers themselves should have a rolloff point. Are they perhaps unpowered? If so, it might be good to check the PA system itself to see how it's connected. Unpowered speakers would need a power amp and probably some type of crossover in the rack, and maybe they don't have that.

Worst case scenario....grab one of the JBLs and use that as a bass rig onstage in place of the 112, fed from your DI. It wouldn't be perfect, but it would help fill out the low end while presumably being unobtrusive if it's on the floor.

I could be off-base on all of this.

 

[ZuluFoxtrot]

I believe the cabling is an issue and prevents the IEM setup from moving.

The board is a Yamaha QL5, really only one person knows how to use it and then everyone else messes it up from what I've been told. I do plan on trying to learn more about it - but there are a few bandmates that seem to swoop in whenever I try to check it out.

After rehearsal last night I might have come to the realization that the Director of Contemporary Worship doesn't really want to deal with it, and neither did the previous one, nor the previous one before that and the live sound issue is what drove away the last person so maybe this is the way it is going to be

Is there a reason why the IEM setup can't be taken from the gymnasium to the sanctuary?

Does the church have a digital board? Or is it analog? If it's digital, maybe just saving the settings for the monitor config would help the issue a lot. If not, dialing in optimal settings and then writing them down in a notebook or something that's left on the mixing console could be worthwhile.

If the board has a built-in highpass, that should be set at the board. Maybe that's something that could also go into the notebook. It occurs to me that the speakers themselves should have a rolloff point. Are they perhaps unpowered? If so, it might be good to check the PA system itself to see how it's connected. Unpowered speakers would need a power amp and probably some type of crossover in the rack, and maybe they don't have that.

Worst case scenario....grab one of the JBLs and use that as a bass rig onstage in place of the 112, fed from your DI. It wouldn't be perfect, but it would help fill out the low end while presumably being unobtrusive if it's on the floor.

I could be off-base on all of this.

 

[Wasnex]

So some questions if you've made it this far:
1. Is my strategy of using the HPF "good" for this situation?
2. Is it normal to have to setup the stage monitor each week with levels that the drummer and I share? Every week it's different, it is like we are starting from scratch each week.
3. The MB112, that faces my shins because my back is nearly against a wall due to the size of the "stage", would that benefit from being elevated higher and tilted back to point at my head?

Anything else I should consider to optimize this situation?

TL;DR: House sound is anemic, bass mix is always inconsistent, different soundboard people all the time, stage monitor has really low volume and poor low frequency response, and bass combo amp points at my shins.

Thank you!
Brett

1. Yes, but. No concerns with applying the HPF to your amp; simply adjust to taste. However, I believe the Yamaha QL5 has HPFs on each input and output. So the audio tech can apply an HPF to your channel and also your monitor send. When/If you have a competent audio tech, you should work with them, rather than applying the HPF to the signal you send to the mixer.
2. Normal for a church that uses volunteers? Yes. With a professional band and audio tech, there would be less or possibly no variation. The audio tech can save scenes on the mixer, and then recall them. The problem may still occur because the musicians are sending different levels. For example if you adjust the level or EQ you send to FOH it impacts every mix that includes your signal.
3. Elevating the MB112 would reduce the amount of lows it is putting into the room. Whether this is good or bad is situational. If you are in a really dry room (non-reverberant) and you rig is pushing the room, then you may want the cab on the floor. If you are in a very wet/reverberant room, the lows tend to build up into a diffuse reverberant field that makes the lows sound loose and incoherent. Also if the bass is sent through the PA, the lows from the stage monitors and bass amp tend to compete with the FOH mix. Ideally the FOH mix should be dominant out front. So reducing the lows produce by your stage rig can be beneficial.

Elevating the cab also notches a frequency in the low mids that is related to how high you lift the cab. Here are relevant article: arqen.com/acoustics-101/speaker-placement-boundary-interference/

Aiming the cab at your ears is good if you want to hear the full range response the cab makes. Speakers start out as omnidirectional at low frequencies. As the frequency increases, the drivers begin to excerpt control over the dispersion patter and shoot the sound out in front. At the highest frequencies many cabs start to beam. If the cab is flat on the floor much of the sound it produces will shoot out below ear level.

For the record I almost always elevate my cab and tilt it back to aim at my ears. But some bass players really hate the way this sounds.

 

[juggahnaught]

I believe the cabling is an issue and prevents the IEM setup from moving.

The board is a Yamaha QL5, really only one person knows how to use it and then everyone else messes it up from what I've been told. I do plan on trying to learn more about it - but there are a few bandmates that seem to swoop in whenever I try to check it out.

After rehearsal last night I might have come to the realization that the Director of Contemporary Worship doesn't really want to deal with it, and neither did the previous one, nor the previous one before that and the live sound issue is what drove away the last person so maybe this is the way it is going to be

Cabling issue - I'm guessing there's some type of stage box setup that the sanctuary may not have. You have personal monitors in the sanctuary, though, right? Maybe all you need is the IEM box and headphone amplifier. But it's true that this may be more complex than the initial thought.

Can you go to the church on an off day and mess with the mixer yourself? Without the bandmates? Tech rehearsals are a very real thing, and it takes time to figure things out. If you have the time, maybe you can take a day and go to the church.

If the directory doesn't want to deal with it, maybe this is your time to shine. It depends on what you want, though. I understand that it can be a lot more work that may not always be worth it timewise or moneywise.

 

[Analogeezer]

I believe the cabling is an issue and prevents the IEM setup from moving.

The board is a Yamaha QL5, really only one person knows how to use it and then everyone else messes it up from what I've been told. I do plan on trying to learn more about it - but there are a few bandmates that seem to swoop in whenever I try to check it out.

After rehearsal last night I might have come to the realization that the Director of Contemporary Worship doesn't really want to deal with it, and neither did the previous one, nor the previous one before that and the live sound issue is what drove away the last person so maybe this is the way it is going to be

This is a great example why digital consoles are not the panacea people seem to think they are.

If anything a decent analog console will be harder to screw up than a digital one because you can just look at it and see what the settings are; there are also fewer opportunities to muck up the sound because you don't have 97 parameters per channel.

With digital consoles you kind of need to be a bit of a programming nerd to get the most out of them and if an idiot has been running it, it takes some detective work to find out they put some kind of processing on a channel that is totally inappropriate.

Analogeezer

 

[Wasnex]

This is a great example why digital consoles are not the panacea people seem to think they are.

If anything a decent analog console will be harder to screw up than a digital one because you can just look at it and see what the settings are; there are also fewer opportunities to muck up the sound because you don't have 97 parameters per channel.

With digital consoles you kind of need to be a bit of a programming nerd to get the most out of them and if an idiot has been running it, it takes some detective work to find out they put some kind of processing on a channel that is totally inappropriate.

Analogeezer

I do agree that there are lot's of ways for an inexperienced user to screw up with a digital board. But in truth, if you have an analog system that actually has the same processing power, it can be bit as confusing. For example if you have several big racks of outboard gear.

If you don't know how to use the processing power in the first place, then all of those extra features can definitely seem confusing and get in the way. However, if you don't know what you are doing, perhaps you should not be fiddling with the board in the first place. IMHO, ideally running sound should be left to people who have the necessary interest, aptitude, and knowledge.

Digital boards are a panacea because they tend to have way more processing power...and they make that processing power very easy to access. In my experience they tend to be pretty easy to run once you learn the user interface. But it takes time and effort to learn and retain how the interface work, and you have to have a certain amount natural ability to start with.

If it's been awhile since I have used a particular digital board, I like to pull it out and practice a bit to refresh my memory of how to navigate the user interface. I also like to keep the owners manual handy. Usually I can remember how to mix just fine, but if there is some sort of configuration setting I want to modify, I may need to reference the OM.

It's also a good idea to keep a notes that explain any custom features you have programmed into the board.

 

[juggahnaught]

This is a great example why digital consoles are not the panacea people seem to think they are.

If anything a decent analog console will be harder to screw up than a digital one because you can just look at it and see what the settings are; there are also fewer opportunities to muck up the sound because you don't have 97 parameters per channel.

With digital consoles you kind of need to be a bit of a programming nerd to get the most out of them and if an idiot has been running it, it takes some detective work to find out they put some kind of processing on a channel that is totally inappropriate.

Analogeezer

I disagree. Someone who doesn't know what they're doing can screw things up just as easily on an analog board as a digital one. (Ask me how I know.) The thing about a digital board is that it can be easier to rectify these issues - you can recall a preset if you saved it previously, so you can basically reset the faulty changes without having to recreate everything from scratch.

Wasnex also makes a great point about outboard equipment, which is the analog equivalent of the digital buses and channel parameters. You can't always tell what's going on at a glance unless you know the system - routing can be just as complex in an analog system as a digital one.

It really comes down to knowledge and familiarity with the system. Someone who lacks one of those will have a harder time, or a preference for a specific system. Someone who lacks both can screw things up equally on either type of platform. It's true that digital consoles aren't an automatic panacea to a lack of knowledge, but I'd argue that it's harder to screw them up and it's definitely easier to recover from that situation.