Weird 3 finger approach to plucking??? What do you think?

[BarfanyShart]

When I switched to 4-finger (T123) I did exercises in almost every permutation of plucking pattern, which I think was fine as an exercise to get comfortable with the technique. But what I found in real playing is that everything fast turns into T-2-1 or T-3-2-1. Any other pattern is slower (for me), but may be helpful for a string crossing or double stop, or something like that.

 

[el murdoque]

Alex Webster's Book "Extreme Metal Bass" has a chapter on three finger plucking.
I can recommend it, some of his methods really boosted my three fingered playing.

I can't really see where 1 3 2 3 makes any sense, because it uses the weakest finger the most.
I personally play either 3 2 1, which takes a little practice to get consistent on counts of 4 and not sounding like triplets, but gets a lot faster than two fingers can,
or 1232 which I can not get much faster than two fingered playing, but I can relax my hand playing parts that would be draining me on two fingers - it feels like jogging vs. running.

 

[Pyrrho Epoche]

This is a great practice, focus on keeping your thumb planted:
Long version:

Long version:

 

[vindibona1]

Interesting replies. I especially appreciate the suggesion of 1-2-3-2. That works, possible better than 1-3-2-3, but not as even yet. But this whole thing has opened up my mind to using the 3rd finger in non-traditional ways. For example, one of my warmup licks is Jaco's Come On, Come Over and I am finding that the 3rd finger, but not in a particular pattern frees up the 2nd finger to do things more efficiently. I think this is a great opportunity for discovery and perhaps the beginning of a pathway to further development?

As far as using a pick? For certain things maybe. And for a lot of fast ostinato stuff as a FORMER crossover guitar player *could* use a pick, But most things don't call for it... except for some Carol Kay stuff .

 

[H K]

In terms of plucking speed, with 2 fingers I max out pretty early, somewhere around 110 BPM on a good day. I see guys like Billy Sheehan that use 3 fingers, obviously for a reason and to pretty well. But when I try fingering with a what would think would be an obvious "1-2-3" pattern, the sound just isn't even, especially when playing 16th notes. My fingers/brain just don't work well making 3 fingers work into quadruplets. And so I thought, "WHAT IF I CHANGED UP THE PATTERN INTO TWO DUPLETS" fingered 1-3-2-3???
Obviously this could take some practice to become comfortable, automatic and up to the speeds I'd like to have. I dunno...
So what do y'all think?

I dont like 3 either. For it to sound right to me, I gotta count 1-2-3-4 in my head while playing 1-2-3-1 (as in finger numbers).
It does improve with practice, but Im still not comfortable. I prefer 4 fingers.
And like you, I also max out pretty quickly with 2, but my best 16ths at high bpm are actually played pointer-finger only. down AND upstroke, like a pick.

 

[Paul New]

Dave Holland uses three, and I think that NHOP did also.

 

[Pyrrho Epoche]

Interesting replies. I especially appreciate the suggesion of 1-2-3-2. That works, possible better than 1-3-2-3, but not as even yet. But this whole thing has opened up my mind to using the 3rd finger in non-traditional ways. For example, one of my warmup licks is Jaco's Come On, Come Over and I am finding that the 3rd finger, but not in a particular pattern frees up the 2nd finger to do things more efficiently. I think this is a great opportunity for discovery and perhaps the beginning of a pathway to further development?

As far as using a pick? For certain things maybe. And for a lot of fast ostinato stuff as a FORMER crossover guitar player *could* use a pick, But most things don't call for it... except for some Carol Kay stuff .

After I read your post, I practiced the 3 finger for hours...some really fast stuff too. I felt during some changes, that a few "finger flicks"(flamenco, gypsy etc) were necessary---- I could not have kept up, if I did not.

 

[Tim Skaggs]

I've been using 3 finger plucking for a very long time. I use 3,2,1,3,2,1 repeating and if I need a four count, it's just 3,2,1,3 2,1,3,2 1,3,2,1 and back through the beginning of the same pattern.

For me, 3 finger is easier and more natural than 4 finger, but I occasionally use four finger. My use of 4 finger is rare and not all that consistent, so it's not a consistent pattern. It's more like the 4th finger is thrown in on the 3 finger pattern every once in a while….

 

[monsterthompson]

Alex Webster's Book "Extreme Metal Bass" has a chapter on three finger plucking.
I can recommend it, some of his methods really boosted my three fingered playing.

I can't really see where 1 3 2 3 makes any sense, because it uses the weakest finger the most.
I personally play either 3 2 1, which takes a little practice to get consistent on counts of 4 and not sounding like triplets, but gets a lot faster than two fingers can,
or 1232 which I can not get much faster than two fingered playing, but I can relax my hand playing parts that would be draining me on two fingers - it feels like jogging vs. running.

I haven't read the book but I've seen video of him describing the technique and I practice it. I haven't been able to get good at it but what I find is that it speeds me up on two finger plucking as it causes me to rethink my technique and breaks me out of certain routine/lazy habits.

 

[el murdoque]

I haven't read the book but I've seen video of him describing the technique and I practice it. I haven't been able to get good at it but what I find is that it speeds me up on two finger plucking as it causes me to rethink my technique and breaks me out of certain routine/lazy habits.

I can actually recommend his book, because it has some interesting insights in how to find yourself around in extreme metal. Some of his techniques I developed myself over the years (without intending to, it just happened), others were eye opening moments. It's a good book - like a short master class on playing in areas where conventional technique will not suffice.

I was struggling with three fingers for a while now, and I got to the point where the ring finger has the strength, dexterity, coordination and stamina to pull an oar on that ship, but struggled to get something with the natural shape of 3 to play something in the shape of 4 and sound good.
Some things in the book were huge for me. Like playing 3-2-1-3-2-1 instead of 1-2-3-1-2-3. It's a bit like that .gif of the subway where your brain can decide which way it travels - but one way works significantly better.


What I personally found was that three fingered playing can be employed in many ways. At any given moment, you can take the load and share it between three fingers instead of two.
I'm not constantly playing three fingered, and I don't think I'll get to a point where three fingers will be my default state - but switching forth and back becomes effortless at some point.

 

[Ritter667]

I am not faster using 3 fingers over 2 for plucking, but does increase my stamina considerably, so I can go fast much longer.

3 fingers is also the only way I can do the Steve Harris gallop thing, even if he allegedly just use 2 fingers.

I am kind of agnostic when it comes to fingering though, most of the time I do use 2 fingers though, but at times only 1, rarely 3, sometimes I even utilize classical guitar finger picking technique, on rare occasions even just my thumb, and if I need to be fast my preferred method if using flamenco guitar style finger flicking technique.

When I do use 3 fingers I predominantly will go 1-2-3-2-1, for gallop though I usually go 3-2-1-3-2-1.

 

[andymac]

As mentioned, the problem with the OP's proposal—or any variations on it—is you still have at least one finger going just as fast as it would be with using 1-2-1-2.

I am a big fan of using three fingers. I don't always—often two, and sometimes just one. But it's nice to have it in the toolbox.

I read somewhere that Sheehan actually forces himself to put an accent at every first downbeat, so that he doesn't sound like playing triplets all the time.
So it sounds like 3213 2132 1321 3213… instead of 321 321 321 321 321 3…

This. This is no different from how we all learn to play triplets as 1-2-1 2-1-2 1-2-1 ... , just a bit more complicated. This is essential to getting eighth or sixteenth notes at all even with three fingers. I need to practice each pattern individually:
3213
2132
1321
to get each down. And when putting them together in practice, I need to exaggerate the accent: 3213 2132 1321 ... I don't do that when I'm actually playing, but I need it in practice to keep things in fours.

It can help to work just on twos first:
32 13 21 32 13 21 32 13 21 32 13 21 ...

I am no Billy Sheehan, but I can definitely play some things this way I would struggle with with only two fingers.

I find, for me, it is helpful not only for sheer speed, but almost more for endurance. A steady sixteenth note thing that would wear me out 1-2-1-2 can be sustained much longer with three fingers.

A side benefit of getting my 3 working is that then I can switch with two-finger when needed: if I get tired playing 1-2-1-2, I can switch to 1-3-1-3 or even 2-3-2-3 without anyone catching on.

Actually, the one thing I will NOT play with three fingers is triplets! I find it too hard, playing with three fingers, to avoid slipping towards two sixteenths and an eighth. That is, rushing the 321, and having the 1 note last longer than the others.

And yeah, agreed with others that often the most efficient thing is to just improve your two-finger speed, especially by relaxing and by dropping your thumb. Or just using a pick. But the three finger thing is worth the effort learning in my opinion. It opens up a lot of options.

 

[Shanannigan]

It's an interesting approach, but I don't really see what it accomplishes. The result is that your 3rd is working twice as hard as your 1st and 2nd fingers. Considering that the ring finger is the weakest finger in the hand, I don't think that it would help achieve more speed.

 

[Barticus]

Consider using your thumb + 3-2-1.

 

[micguy]

You have a lot more speed you can develop with 2 fingers before you really need to think about a third. My index finger is a bit slow from carpal tunnel related things, but I have at least 2x your speed with just 2 fingers, and I'm not very fast.

Pick a few tunes. Load them into a program where you can vary the speed, and play along. Play at a speed where you can play cleanly, then slowly increase it. If you keep at it for a few months, you'll be surprised how much progress you can make. We are not born with finger speed, it's a "software" thing we need to burn into our brains through repeated practice.

 

[devnulljp]

3-2-1 or 1-2-3, it's still trying to make a triplet sound like a quadruplet. I've tried both of those, and no matter how I practice, as slow as I can, I cannot play 16ths evenly.

Try 3-2-1-3 | 2-1-3-2 | 1-3-2-1 wash rinse repeat
I tired it with a metronome set to issue a louder beep on 1 and accented that, then on 2 and accented that, then on 3 and accented that, then on 4 an accented that to get it to even out.
I think that's what Billy Sheehan does, or something similar. it gets you closer to 4s with 3s

 

[red_rhino]

Steve Bailey and many others use a 1-2-3-2-1 approach. It seems like that would be more efficient and easier to keep consistent.

When I was just starting out, the music teacher at my high school staged a sort of "intervention" by introducing me to the bass player in his own band, who showed me the 1-2-3-2-1 approach. It made a huge difference and I still use it today. It does take some practice to make it smooth, but it became second nature very quickly.

 

[vindibona1]

Update:
I'm working on 1-2-3-2-1 now, which seems to be the most logical approach. But it will take awhile to make it usaable.

I have a question though... I'm now following Vincen Garcia and he is SO fast. And as I watch his right hand fingers, it seems at times he is using 3 fingers Yes/no?

 

[Shanannigan]

Update:
I'm working on 1-2-3-2-1 now, which seems to be the most logical approach. But it will take awhile to make it usaable.

I have a question though... I'm now following Vincen Garcia and he is SO fast. And as I watch his right hand fingers, it seems at times he is using 3 fingers Yes/no?

Nope, he's just using two fingers throughout that.

I know some players like John Myung use a similar approach of either 3-2-1-2 or 1-2-3-2. It's never really made sense to me since the 2 finger is still working at the same rate as it would with two fingers, so it will still set the same speed limit regardless since that finger won't be able to go any faster. Basically 1-2-3-2 is functionally the same as 1-2-1-2 for the 2nd finger.

Billy Sheehan's approach is the only one that I think would actually give a speed advantage with 3 fingers, which is super-imposing a 4 feel across 3-2-1. Like 3-2-1-3 | 2-1-3-2 | 1-3-2-1 | 3-2-1-3 etc. However it is tricky to get a hang of.

Personally I tend to only use 3 fingers to achieve fast triplets, or gallops. And sometimes I'll use a Matt Garrison style 4 finger approach for 32nd notes, or for string skipping or chordal fingerpicking. Otherwise 2 fingers suffices for most things.

But in short I think that more fingers only really allows more speed if the pattern is spread evenly across each finger. If one finger is over working the others then that finger will set the speed limit.

 

[vindibona1]

Nope, he's just using two fingers throughout that.

I know some players like John Myung use a similar approach of either 3-2-1-2 or 1-2-3-2. It's never really made sense to me since the 2 finger is still working at the same rate as it would with two fingers, so it will still set the same speed limit regardless since that finger won't be able to go any faster. Basically 1-2-3-2 is functionally the same as 1-2-1-2 for the 2nd finger.

I was a bit surprised to realize that the 2nd finger is utilized as many times on a 1-2-3-2 as a 1-2-1-2 pattern. HOWEVER, there appears to be something about using the 3rd finger that has some extra strength that the others don't have. There is also an element of fatigue that a simple 1-2 pattern evokes that is abated when I add the 3rd finger. While it is possible for me to keep up with 16th ostinatos for a time, I could not keep that up for 3 minutes or more. I don't know how these guys do with only two fingers.