• TalkBass has been independent since 1998. Add your voice.
    Create a free account to reply to discussions, view embedded media, and browse with fewer display ads.
    Join free Log in
    Want zero display ads or expanded classifieds tools? Compare plans.

Weird -maybe theoretical- question

D

deOdin

Jul 30, 2010
20
0
Neverland
#1
I have a question. Firstly I have an average theory knowledge and generally I'm going by the beat more than rules (don't get me wrong I'm not a tab guitarist).

Last night in a pub, a jam session was going on and I went on stage with my close friend on keys (he's about the finish his degree in musical composition in conservatory so he knows "music"). There were also a trumpeter, guitarist and drummer on stage. The jamming has started in Eb pentatonic major-ish with some add9 touch and we were playing smoothly. At first I wasn't able to hear the bass guitar I play until someone fixed it from the mixer. (the guitar wasn't mine and it was a custom one with tons of pots switches, I'm just a regular jazz bass guy). At first, my friend playing the keys realized that I wasn't hearing a thing so he told me the chords going on with lipsync. I was going ok (from his point of view) until bass sound came back on my monitor, so I realized it was not ok for me, so I switched from Eb to Bb (fifth) scale to go - I know its not a big deal for pentatonic scale but until we came down the stage, he continuously bugged me "It's Eb - play it right.. It's Eb - play it right". I didn't play it straightforward though - sometimes I mixed it with bebop etc but i was in tune and he kept on saying that. The song lasted about 15 minutes, after we got off the stage he was still bugging me and I was like "what the hell?". I asked few musician friends in the audience and got "you were okay."

So am I a victim of his ego, or my lack of knowledge?

Sorry I am not able to give much details right now because I was moderately drunk and don't remember the notes I particularly play.
 
#2
deOdin said:
........ he continuously bugged me "It's Eb - play it right.. It's Eb - play it right". I didn't play it straightforward though - sometimes I mixed it with bebop etc but i was in tune and he kept on saying that. The song lasted about 15 minutes, after we got off the stage he was still bugging me and I was like "what the hell?". I asked few musician friends in the audience and got "you were okay."

So am I a victim of his ego, or my lack of knowledge?

Sorry I am not able to give much details right now because I was moderately drunk and don't remember the notes I particularly play.
Click to expand...

Guitar guys hear keys pretty well. I'm sure the drinks had nothing to do with this....... I've always found that if I'm really lost, it is best to drop out.
 
#4
deOdin said:
The jamming has started in Eb pentatonic major-ish with some add9 touch and we were playing smoothly. .... my friend playing the keys realized that I wasn't hearing a thing so he told me the chords going on with lipsync. ... I was going ok (from his point of view) until bass sound came back on my monitor ...,so I switched from Eb to Bb (fifth) scale to go ... he continuously bugged me "It's Eb - play it right.. It's Eb - play it right". I didn't play it straightforward though - sometimes I mixed it with bebop etc but i was in tune and he kept on saying that. The song lasted about 15 minutes, after we got off the stage he was still bugging me and I was like "what the hell?". I asked few musician friends in the audience and got "you were okay."
Click to expand...
If the song was in Eb and you were playing in Bb, well ... you were wrong. Asking friends in the audience won't ever get you an objective opinion. They won't want to offend you ... you're done, it's over, and they've already moved on.
So am I a victim of his ego, or my lack of knowledge?
Click to expand...
The latter I'm afraid.

Sorry I am not able to give much details right now because I was moderately drunk and don't remember the notes I particularly play.
Click to expand...
Therein was your first mistake.
 
#5
deOdin said:
... Firstly I have an average theory knowledge and generally I'm going by the beat more than rules



my close friend on keys (he's about the finish his degree in musical composition in conservatory so he knows "music").



So am I a victim of his ego, or my lack of knowledge?

Sorry I am not able to give much details right now because I was moderately drunk and don't remember the notes I particularly play.
Click to expand...




Hmm..

I'm no detective,(and I can barely spell theory, let alone tell you about it) ;) & not trying to offend..

Based on the info above, there is a slight chance that maybe he was onto something..

JMO?
 
#6
"You were OK" usually means, "I'm trying to be nice here so I don't want to tell you what I really thought."

:D

Obviously we'd have to hear what was going on to be specific about what you were doing, but if you're supposed to be playing an Eb and you're playing Bb instead, then you're not playing the song. And if you're bebopping all around when you should be playing the song, then you're doing a disservice to the rest of the band and performing a little skill that some might refer to as "wanking." When it's your turn to rip, then rip, but when it's not, be supportive and try less hard to be clever. Sounds to me like when you couldn't hear yourself, you played it more safe, which was probably what the rest of the band wanted.

And while I'm certainly not going to preach to someone about getting loaded before they play, maybe ease up on the drinking when you play for now, because while a single drink may loosen up someone and make them relaxed enough to play really well, 4 or 5 drinks can loosen people up too much and then they play all over the tune and make it all about them.

Again, I'm only going by your description of the events...but it sounded like you went off in your own little world there and ran roughshod over the rest of the band. If you want to do that, then you have to have your own band and call all the shots and book all the gigs. Otherwise, you're going to find that most people who will call you for gigs would prefer you play the song and not bebop so much.
 
#7
Well, if your tune was in Eb major, being EB, Bb and G all part of your chord, it would have sounded "fine" if you had played any of the notes of the chord... by playing on Eb, or Bb, you were just playing a standard inversion of the chord. Weird (or unconventional) would have been if you had been playing E, D or A while the tune was in Eb.

If you were just jamming around and there was no specific intention to root the chord in a particular note, it ends being just a matter of taste, yours against your keyboardist's... perhaps open the space to some variation during a jam would have been the behavior expected from a guy about to graduate from music composition....
 
#8
Haha got so many criticism, thats good - it was a jam session so everyone on stage has their personal "wanking" period on stage. About the notes, my friend tends not to use 5ths in their chords like he generally goes with 1-3-7 variations depending on chords so he leaves the 5th spot empty, so from what I've heard from my playing, filling the 5ths was a good idea. Also everyone was a little under influence - its a jam session in a pub :) and I've been at work for 10 hours then went to the place, thats way I dont remember the notes because I was very tired - I think I gave you more details than needed :P.

I was actually trying to ask you whether this is musically acceptable or not because of my friends' behavior - I meant no offense or any intention of ruining the jam on stage.
 
#9
Well bear in mind that in the vast majority of cases, the bass is there to outline the root note of the chords. True, not always, but most of the time. So hanging on the V when a I is expected will come across to those who expect the bass to outline the root as "wrong." It may be technically correct but not always "spiritually" correct, for lack of a better word.

But it's all on a case by case basis, and there are times when the V is exactly what's needed against the chord. For example, a a fairly common chord progression to resolve a song will go I/V-V7-I. And without us being there, for all we know, your stuff might have sounded fine. But the guy in charge didn't seem to think so, so you might want to bear that in mind next time. Creativity is good and I certainly don't want to discourage you from being creative. But discipline in your creativity should be considered ;)
 
#10
Sounds like you couldn't hear things very well. I've played tunes where things were hard to hear, especially when it's all too loud. It can make you momentarily tone deaf sometimes. But when your friend said it IS Eb, well, he was probably right. Why didn't you just go with what he said? And sure, creativity is a good thing, but only in its place.

Oh well, at least you were in a flat key.
 
#11
deOdin said:
Haha got so many criticism, thats good - it was a jam session so everyone on stage has their personal "wanking" period on stage. About the notes, my friend tends not to use 5ths in their chords like he generally goes with 1-3-7 variations depending on chords so he leaves the 5th spot empty, so from what I've heard from my playing, filling the 5ths was a good idea. Also everyone was a little under influence - its a jam session in a pub :) and I've been at work for 10 hours then went to the place, thats way I dont remember the notes because I was very tired - I think I gave you more details than needed :P.

I was actually trying to ask you whether this is musically acceptable or not because of my friends' behavior - I meant no offense or any intention of ruining the jam on stage.
Click to expand...

As a bass player your primary job is to play the root and chord tones. Keyboard players also can play the root and basslines. So unless you want the keyboard guy to just ignore you and play his own bassline you better start playing a root-centric bassline. It doesn’t mean you can’t play other chord tones, but it should all lead back to the root, unless you are soloing.

Also, a “jam session” doesn’t mean everyone solos at the same time. It means everyone solos in turn. So when it’s your turn to solo you can rip it up and bebop all over. But when it’s not your turn you support the rest of the band and the person soloing and that means staying on the root so the keyboard guy doesn’t have to play the root and can do his thing.
 
#12
What's interesting is that you were playing fine when you couldn't hear yourself, but changed to the wrong key when you could. It sounds to me that you were fishing around for a blanket scale to jam with when you should have been searching for the chord changes that were going on. Even if you just played the root of each chord and pedaled the strings, you probably would have sounded great! :)
 
#13
What's "right" for a key depends on context , and 'Jamming in Eb pentatonic major-ish' is not much context. So any judgement posted here is suspect.

deOdin said:
...I switched from Eb to Bb (fifth) scale to go - I know its not a big deal for pentatonic scale
Click to expand...

It might be a big deal...
Eb maj pentatonic: Eb Gb Ab Bb Db Eb
Bb maj pentatonic: Bb Db Eb F Ab Bb

perhaps he heard your F clash with his Gb
perhaps he expected you to hold the root on Eb
perhaps he was playing a chord progression in Eb that you were unaware of.
 
#14
mambo4 said:
What's "right" for a key depends on context , and 'Jamming in Eb pentatonic major-ish' is not much context. So any judgement posted here is suspect.



It might be a big deal...
Eb maj pentatonic: Eb Gb Ab Bb Db Eb
Bb maj pentatonic: Bb Db Eb F Ab Bb
Click to expand...

You mean min pentatonic here? Or did you mean Maj and type the minor pents?

Eb Maj pent: Eb F G Bb C

Bb Maj pent: Bb C D F G.

In Eb Major, you can use either. Minor is a different kettle of worms.
 
#15
I suggest you hook up with your keyboard friend and get him to show you what he was talking about. Seems like you were missing the mark and fishing around a bit too much, which basically says you weren't sure what was going on. I guess if everyone was drunk and you would usually know how to play, then I guess it's a moot point.

"Eb pentatonic Major-ish" isn't a key... It's not anything. So there's a definite lack of knowledge...
 

Latest posts

Top Bottom
Back