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What about a modified fender bridge ?

Hello. I just thinking for my new Precision build project to use a simplified version of Fender bridge. Meant if original transfer string resonances from 4 contact points ;( 1.string-saddle / 2. Saddle-screw/ 3.screw-plate / 4. Plate-bass top) to reduce this at only two contact points using just one piece saddle between string and top, without any hights adjustment. I may follow this just cutting four slots into the bridge plate and install four , say 4 tusq saddles in direct contact with the guitar top. May someone apreciate if this approach come with a benefit in respect with better resonance and sustain please ? A basic sketch was added. Thanks.

20231119_003402.jpg
 
From a mechanical point of view, if the 4 pieces of metal are "touching" each other with a great amount of pressure, they almost become one single part. Don’t know what strings you use but mine, when tighten, they apply enough pressure to transmit vibration.
The thing that gives me the most sustain is when the body of the bass is light.
 
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From a mechanical point of view, if the 4 pieces of metal are "touching" each other with a great amount of pressure, they almost become one single part. Don’t know what strings you use but mine, when tighten, they apply enough pressure to transmit vibration.
The thing that gives me the most sustain is when the body of the bass is light.
Hey. Just messing around the subject: They could be 3 different types of materials , say brass saddle, hard steel screws and soft steel or zinc plate. .Each one will comes to "filter" the resonance on its way....too many variables to get a conclusion as : which one do what ...? Over that, what could be wrong with just a direct contact saddle ? It work like a nut in opposite side.. the most simple string coupling to the body can be ever made. And technically speaking more stable than adjustable saddles are. The difference is it have to set the action with a file, like all the classics do. Further, replacing a small piece of material as saddle may do a difference in case it need to filter some harmonics content, no need to change the whole bridge for that. The actual ideea is the saddles no need a bridge. The actual bridge have not a bridge function anymore as longitudinal cutting slots ensure just side stability for the saddles. The saddles sitting down directly on the top of the body.
 
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Catalin;

You are looking into the right things, but you have some of it backwards in how it works. Making the bridge saddle from a material that is softer than metal will reduce the sustain, not increase it. Making the saddle and all the bridge parts from hard rigid metal will give you the most sustain and the flattest attack curve. Swapping in a softer material for the saddle, such as a block of wood, will turn the attack curve into a pulse at the front, with the level dropping off; sustain is low.

Putting in a rubber block for the saddle will kill the sustain completely. Pluck the string and you get a dull thump and nothing after it. If you watch the string, you'll see that it stops moving after just a couple of back and forth swings. The squishing of the rubber with every cycle drains the motion and energy out of the string. So it slows down and stops moving.

If the saddle is a rigid block of metal, then it barely moves at all as the string swings around. It doesn't drain the motion or energy, and the string keeps swinging away, ringing out with long sustain.

And this also applies to the entire frame of the bass: the neck, the neck/body joint, the body, and all the hardware that attaches the strings to the frame. The stiffer and more rigid the frame is overall, the longer the sustain will be. And the flatter the attack curve. All of the frame components are part of it.

If you were to carve a P-bass from a block of granite, and attach the strings with steel hardware, it would have the ultimate sustain. The plucked string would ring for long minutes.

When you build the frame from something less rigid, like wood, then it will vibrate along with the string. The flexing of the string, pulling between the two anchor points, makes the whole frame bend and flex in vibration. Picture how an archery bow flexes when you pull the string. The bass frame is pulled up like that by the tension of the string.

Each cycle of this vibration of the frame draws motion and energy out of the string, reducing the amplitude of the strings motion. And that reduces the level of signal detected by the pickup. Which quiets down the sound coming from the amp. That's how the flexing and vibration of the frame changes the sound on the string, and therefore, the sound out through the amp.

This is what we Luthiers mess around with to adjust the sound of the bass; the sound out through the pickup and amp. Changing the materials and design of the neck, body and hardware can significantly change the sound of an electric bass, out through the amp. It's all about the net stiffness and damping properties of the component.

And the choice of material is only one factor. The design and dimensions of the part are a bigger factor. You can't declare that one material will change the sound in one way. It all depends on how the part is designed and built.

The different parts of the frame will mostly affect different areas of the frequency range, too. It gets complicated. In general, the stiffness of the neck and the neck/body joint will mostly affect the low end. Mainly the clarity and the sustain of the low end. The stiffness or softness of the body mostly affects the coldness or warmth of the midrange. The body flexing adds background coloration. Those extra tones that fill out the sound and make it "warm".

The stiffness of the hardware, like the bridge saddles, mostly affects the clarity and sustain of the high end. Metal parts make the highest notes ring longer and clearer. Not necessarily louder in the EQ, but longer sustain and cleaner sounding. Slightly softer saddles will make the high notes mushier and die down quicker. Saddles which are much softer will make the notes drop off quickly, through the whole range.

This is a complicated subject which gets argued endlessly around here, but these are the basics.
 
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Thanks. I agree with all of this. But still wonder in a classic instrument build the reactance of the body make the body vibe in sound. In case of an electric instrument this energy is lost but the reaction of the excited body back to the string still exist. So what I do not know if we want to preserve the reaction of the body against the string or we want to isolate the string to interact with the body using high mass couplings (bridge, nuts...) ? I still wonder how to manage this looking to optimize (or not) relation between body and string. (The reactions of professional players users are strictly different oriented as for some most is count are the pickups and strings whilst for other the type of materials used and precise craft quality do a difference - and I not talking about the finishing ).
 
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Thanks. I agree with all of this. But still wonder in a classic instrument build the reactance of the body make the body vibe in sound. In case of an electric instrument this energy is lost but the reaction of the excited body back to the string still exist. So what I do not know if we want to preserve the reaction of the body against the string or we want to isolate the string to interact with the body using high mass couplings ? I still wonder how to manage this.

What I described above is how the flexing and vibration of the whole frame changes the vibration on the string. Which changes what the pickup "hears" and sends to the amp. That's the sound that you hear from an electric bass, coming from the speakers.

In an acoustic instrument, such as a classical guitar, there's another type of vibration going on, in addition to the overall flexing of the frame. The body of an acoustic guitar is built as a hollow box filled with air. The top of the body is thin and flexible, and is designed to flex up and down. The vibration of the strings pushes up and down on the bridge, which pushes on the top, which makes the top vibrate up and down. That motion of the top pushes on the air in front of the instrument and squeezes the air inside the box, creating sound. Without an amplifier and speakers. That's what an acoustic instrument does.

In an acoustic instrument, the bridge is the part that transfers the vibration of the string to the top, and makes the top vibrate. That's the reaction against the body that you are talking about. In an acoustic guitar, the top is built very carefully with the wood properties, the thicknessing, and the bracing underneath, all to make the top vibrate in a particular way. Which shapes the sound that you hear in the air around the instrument.

But the vibration of the top also plays a part in the vibration of the frame overall, which changes the vibration on the string. Which changes the vibration of the top.......It feeds back on itself, which gets really complicated. That's where you get into vibrations getting out of phase due to damping, odd frequency spikes being created in the background, natural frequency resonances, etc.

Shaping the sound of an acoustic instrument gets really complicated because you have the combination of the two vibration modes going on at the same time, through the same parts. The Frame Vibration is the reaction of the frame to the vibration on the the string. And the Acoustic Vibration is the reaction of the body top to the vibration of the bridge, which comes from the vibration on the string.

On an acoustic instrument, making the bridge/saddle very rigid and low mass will do the most efficient job of coupling the string's vibration to the top. But that usually results in a screaming bright high end. More than you usually want. For example, if you used a stainless steel bridge on an acoustic guitar, you probably wouldn't like the sound.

So, on most acoustic instruments the bridge is made from softer materials, usually wood. This will tend to dampen the transfer of high frequency vibration, while passing most of the lower frequencies through to the top. It doesn't boost the low end, it just trims the high end. That's done to shape the sound, turning down the high end. A softer bridge also trims the high end in the Frame Vibration too, reducing the clarity and sustain of the high end notes...on the strings.

Going back to electric basses, Acoustic Vibration has a smaller side effect, too. When the frame starts vibrating in reaction to the strings' vibration, the bass is shaking in open air. The surfaces are pushing the air around and creating sound that you can hear. When you play an electric bass unplugged, and listen carefully, you can hear some acoustic sound from it. That's the frame vibration, creating a little bit of acoustic sound on the side. It's not exactly the same sound that you'll hear from the strings, through the pickup, amp and speakers. But it will give you an idea of what the bass will sound like plugged in.

How loud an electric bass is when played unplugged is an indication of how much Frame Vibration is going on. And therefore, how much the frame of the bass is changing the sound on the strings. A bass built with a rigid frame will be quiet when you play it unplugged. It's smooth and still in your hands. You'll mainly hear the metallic twang of the strings. And when you plug it in through an amp, the sound will be mostly from the strings, the pickup and any onboard electronics. The frame isn't vibrating much, or playing much of a part in changing the sound. Many electric basses are specifically designed to be like this, and that's what some players want.

But if a bass is fairly loud when played unplugged, and you can feel it vibrating in your hands, that means that the frame is vibrating in reaction to the strings. It was built to do that, and it does change the sound on the strings. Which gets heard by the pickup and sent on to the amp.

That's how we Luthiers play around with the sound of electric basses. There's much more to an electric bass than just pickups and electronic circuits. There's a complicated mechanical side too.
 
What I described above is how the flexing and vibration of the whole frame changes the vibration on the string. Which changes what the pickup "hears" and sends to the amp. That's the sound that you hear from an electric bass, coming from the speakers.

In an acoustic instrument, such as a classical guitar, there's another type of vibration going on, in addition to the overall flexing of the frame. The body of an acoustic guitar is built as a hollow box filled with air. The top of the body is thin and flexible, and is designed to flex up and down. The vibration of the strings pushes up and down on the bridge, which pushes on the top, which makes the top vibrate up and down. That motion of the top pushes on the air in front of the instrument and squeezes the air inside the box, creating sound. Without an amplifier and speakers. That's what an acoustic instrument does.

In an acoustic instrument, the bridge is the part that transfers the vibration of the string to the top, and makes the top vibrate. That's the reaction against the body that you are talking about. In an acoustic guitar, the top is built very carefully with the wood properties, the thicknessing, and the bracing underneath, all to make the top vibrate in a particular way. Which shapes the sound that you hear in the air around the instrument.

But the vibration of the top also plays a part in the vibration of the frame overall, which changes the vibration on the string. Which changes the vibration of the top.......It feeds back on itself, which gets really complicated. That's where you get into vibrations getting out of phase due to damping, odd frequency spikes being created in the background, natural frequency resonances, etc.

Shaping the sound of an acoustic instrument gets really complicated because you have the combination of the two vibration modes going on at the same time, through the same parts. The Frame Vibration is the reaction of the frame to the vibration on the the string. And the Acoustic Vibration is the reaction of the body top to the vibration of the bridge, which comes from the vibration on the string.

On an acoustic instrument, making the bridge/saddle very rigid and low mass will do the most efficient job of coupling the string's vibration to the top. But that usually results in a screaming bright high end. More than you usually want. For example, if you used a stainless steel bridge on an acoustic guitar, you probably wouldn't like the sound.

So, on most acoustic instruments the bridge is made from softer materials, usually wood. This will tend to dampen the transfer of high frequency vibration, while passing most of the lower frequencies through to the top. It doesn't boost the low end, it just trims the high end. That's done to shape the sound, turning down the high end. A softer bridge also trims the high end in the Frame Vibration too, reducing the clarity and sustain of the high end notes...on the strings.

Going back to electric basses, Acoustic Vibration has a smaller side effect, too. When the frame starts vibrating in reaction to the strings' vibration, the bass is shaking in open air. The surfaces are pushing the air around and creating sound that you can hear. When you play an electric bass unplugged, and listen carefully, you can hear some acoustic sound from it. That's the frame vibration, creating a little bit of acoustic sound on the side. It's not exactly the same sound that you'll hear from the strings, through the pickup, amp and speakers. But it will give you an idea of what the bass will sound like plugged in.

How loud an electric bass is when played unplugged is an indication of how much Frame Vibration is going on. And therefore, how much the frame of the bass is changing the sound on the strings. A bass built with a rigid frame will be quiet when you play it unplugged. It's smooth and still in your hands. You'll mainly hear the metallic twang of the strings. And when you plug it in through an amp, the sound will be mostly from the strings, the pickup and any onboard electronics. The frame isn't vibrating much, or playing much of a part in changing the sound. Many electric basses are specifically designed to be like this, and that's what some players want.

But if a bass is fairly loud when played unplugged, and you can feel it vibrating in your hands, that means that the frame is vibrating in reaction to the strings. It was built to do that, and it does change the sound on the strings. Which gets heard by the pickup and sent on to the amp.

That's how we Luthiers play around with the sound of electric basses. There's much more to an electric bass than just pickups and electronic circuits. There's a complicated mechanical side too.


Great explanations, Bruce. Your last two posts should be in a stickie at the top of the LC. Closed for replies of course so we don’t have to have it become an endless tonewood debate. :D:laugh:
 
Great explanations, Bruce. Your last two posts should be in a stickie at the top of the LC. Closed for replies of course so we don’t have to have it become an endless tonewood debate. :D:laugh:

Agree. These two posts address address many of the misconceptions we get from folks who don't understand the physics of stringed instruments.
 
Eh, I don’t really need sustain for my style of play, apart from some slight compression I tend mute strings ALOT.
I prefer a clean clear note and a more control decay I can by lightly touching the strings near the bridge, sustain is how long the instrument is capable of having a note ring out when the note is struck one time and held, am I missing somethin someone enlighten me please.
 
Hello. I just thinking for my new Precision build project to use a simplified version of Fender bridge. Meant if original transfer string resonances from 4 contact points ;( 1.string-saddle / 2. Saddle-screw/ 3.screw-plate / 4. Plate-bass top) to reduce this at only two contact points using just one piece saddle between string and top, without any hights adjustment. I may follow this just cutting four slots into the bridge plate and install four , say 4 tusq saddles in direct contact with the guitar top. May someone apreciate if this approach come with a benefit in respect with better resonance and sustain please ? A basic sketch was added. Thanks.

View attachment 5255709
You'll regret deeply, not being able to adjust your saddle height.
 
You'll regret deeply, not being able to adjust your saddle height.
Very sorry, I don't get you point... why an adjustable saddle height control is so important ? As time it is settled once for most convenient position why ever feel to mess permanently with it and in consequence to have a easy handy control please ? Thx.
Late: I may understand why it is necessary when you already have one, and that is happen just because the basic screw adjustment is not dead stable and in certain cases is moving. And still I may understand why is need it from a comercial perspective. But here we talking by a custom instrument and not a comercial solution, which inherent need to have a adjustable control to compensate building errors or/and taste of the user. I may cut kind of saddles, drill, cut a thread, filled and set in one hour or so. When you get a new nut you need to cut it by proper adjustment by yourself. In this case of bridge is the same. Is so simple. But you may use also a nut with a height adjustment as well nowadays, that.s true...
 
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Very sorry, I don't get you point... why an adjustable saddle height control is so important ? As time it is settled once for most convenient position why ever feel to mess permanently with it and in consequence to have a easy handy control please ? Thx.
Late: I may understand why it is necessary when you already have one, and that is happen just because the basic screw adjustment is not dead stable and in certain cases is moving. And still I may understand why is need it from a comercial perspective. But here we talking by a custom instrument. I may cut kind of saddles, drill, cut a thread, filled and set in one hour or so. When you get a new nut you may cut it by proper adjustment by yourself. In this case of bridge is the same. Is so simple. But you may use also a nut with a height adjustment as well nowadays, that.s true...
Because wood moves and changes.


It's gonna play like an acoustic guitar. Your strings will forever be set too high.
 
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Thanks.Yes, I agree. The wood is working, sometime the instrument should be reset. If the wood work so dramatically it ask frequently to dramatic reset the adjustable stuffs make you life easy, of course.(easy to turn a screw than to cut a saddle-that.s for sure). In my case I did a bet on roasted treated maple and ash hoping I.ll get bit of stability from this point
 
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Thanks.Yes, I agree. The wood is working, sometime the instrument should be reset. If the wood work so dramatically it ask frequently to dramatic reset the adjustable stuffs make you life easy, of course. In my case I did a bet on roasted treated maple and ash hoping I.ll get bit of stability from this point
This is assuming you use the same type of strings forever, which almost nobody does. It’s one of two things that annoys me about acoustic guitar. I put up with it because I have to but I’d never buy an electric guitar or bass without height adjustment. There’s just no good reason not to have it. Basses have plenty of sustain as is.
 
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This is assuming you use the same type of strings forever, which almost nobody does. It’s one of two things that annoys me about acoustic guitar. I put up with it because I have to but I’d never buy an electric guitar or bass without height adjustment. There’s just no good reason not to have it. Basses have plenty of sustain as is.
Thanks. Ok, that's another point. Glad to have as much considerations from professionals players and the reasons the stuff have a sense for what asked for.
 
By the way, I’m not against you trying anything like this. You may very well come up with something that sounds great. My Longhorn (very cheaply built semi hollow) has a piece of wood attached to a plate that adjusts with two screws on the side and one on the saddle to “set” intonation, and it sounds great to me. The exact opposite of what you think will happen is going to happen, and non adjustable string height is a hard sell, but that’s ok.
 
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