I would start by taking everything except the tuner out of that chain. Then see what happens. Is it necessary to send a high passed signal to a mixing board that presumably also has HPF?
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What Am I Missing?
- Thread starter Nightman
- Start date
The answer is still “compressor”. I would not even focus on the model or look for a replacement. I’d focus on adjusting it to your live mix (if possible) or at least to gig levels. A compressor is either a lifesaver or it does nothing at all based on how it’s deployed.
Your sound person doesn't understand, yes that's exactly what I would expect for levels.
There's nothing wrong, if they want the same level then FOH should have compressors available, and of course know how to use them.
It's really not your problem to solve with your rig.
It sounds like he wants you to play thumb all show. LOL
There's nothing wrong, if they want the same level then FOH should have compressors available, and of course know how to use them.
It's really not your problem to solve with your rig.
It sounds like he wants you to play thumb all show. LOL
How is the "sound guy" compensating for the difference in levels?
The frequency response of the the 2 techniques can be quite different as well, contributing to your finger/palm muting getting lost in the mix. (?)
How much do you using fingers/muting vs. thumb?
I'd start by making sure FOH has a good mix while using your fingers & muting.
Then find out what happens in the mix when you use your thumb, and compensate* from there.
*that may require both of you to make adjustments.
It just may be more than what FOH wants to deal with. (?)
The frequency response of the the 2 techniques can be quite different as well, contributing to your finger/palm muting getting lost in the mix. (?)
How much do you using fingers/muting vs. thumb?
I'd start by making sure FOH has a good mix while using your fingers & muting.
Then find out what happens in the mix when you use your thumb, and compensate* from there.
*that may require both of you to make adjustments.
It just may be more than what FOH wants to deal with. (?)
If you're not talking about slapping, my thumb is quieter than my fingers (and pick), I've been know to bump my volume up slightly for that. Although I usually only played with my thumb on slower/quieter songs anyways.
You might have some experiments ahead, adjusting your compressor and /or how hard you play with different techniques. Or a boost pedal when you switch to fingers
You might have some experiments ahead, adjusting your compressor and /or how hard you play with different techniques. Or a boost pedal when you switch to fingers
IMO, your understanding is correct generally. There ususally is a difference in dynamics between slapping and palm-muting.
What I would take from the sound tech's statement is that the difference between levels is too big.
First: get a quality dual-band (multi-band) compressor. I use EBS Multicomp.
Second: work on your palm-muting technique. Learn how to make it louder.
Third: re-consider the use of "alternative" playing techniques (slapping, palm-muting). Are they really appropriate/neccessary for any particular song? Do they bring value added...or do they cause additional/neccessary problems?
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My first guess is we have a kind of weak signal followed by very uneven techniques. OP could start by boosting signal to the board and then either not slapping so hard or dialing volume on the bass back when they will be slapping vs plucking and muting.
Best bet is to run a hotter signal and see if technique alone can manage it.
I’ll go a bit against the grain and say that if the techniques you use give you the sounds you want they’re ok. Maybe try using the bass’s volume control more or alternatively a simple, quality volume pedal. A compressor will change your sound more than a volume when the signal is on the way off your board.
You should probably ask someone else in there if it sounds ok at the FOH or if there are parts where the bass is too loud or too quiet. If the sound guy is inexperienced and is guiding himself more by the indicators in his board and not with his ears... you may be worryig by an unexistent problem.
Sounds like a compressor somewhere in the chain would help. Palm mutes are supposed to be subtler than full-on plucking, but it can make your bassline underwhelming if it's too quiet.
A compressor will let you make those palm mutes a little more prominent without your plucking sticking out too much. If you were playing on a tube amp and had it set right, that would do much of this job for you.
Technique could definitely aid this, but if you're comfortable with the way you play, then you shouldn't have to make yourself play harder. As far as effects go, compressor is one of those things that fits in pretty much any context, as long as you don't have it set like a maniac.
I'd also like to add, that you can double up on the finger. Use 2 fingers.
I tried to palm mute while fingering with my index and middle and I can't do it. Left hand muting sure but that is not palm muting. I sort of can but I have to angle my fingers and yep the output is low because I am plucking at an angle. So I have to say technique. As I said earlier flip it.
I tried to palm mute while fingering with my index and middle and I can't do it. Left hand muting sure but that is not palm muting. I sort of can but I have to angle my fingers and yep the output is low because I am plucking at an angle. So I have to say technique. As I said earlier flip it.
- Jul 7, 2010
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As properly said it is NOT a gear issue it is just technique. You will always get an output difference because of the different styles of playing. But by saying this, just practice your styles by putting your hands into different positions. You will notice the differences, and you will find what works best. Just my 1-1/2 cents.
I have learned when playing different techniques in songs where to properly get the best overall output. It just takes a bit of practicing.
I have learned when playing different techniques in songs where to properly get the best overall output. It just takes a bit of practicing.
From what I see on your pedal board, you have the enhance on the WTDI set around 11:00. On Edens, running the enhance higher than 9:00 or so can kill your ability to cut through. That along with too much compression might be an issue too. On my WT400, I keep enhance under 9:00 and compression fairly light. This could also be why slapping would seem louder than finger plucking. Might be worth trying.
This. In my experience, church audio engineers are often (not always, but often) inexperienced. That said, I would guess the engineer isnt putting compression on your signal, so maybe you can compensate by adjusting your own? Also, if he is suggesting that he wants more bass volume / signal, maybe just turn up and enjoy it. I usually get the opposite. LOL
D
Different playing techniques can give different output. When you've slapping you WANT that crisp tone and fast attack you get when hitting the strings hard. When playing fingerstyle or palm muting you probably want a softer tone and play softer. I don't think this is caused by poor playing technique. I mean, you probably won't get the tone you want if you hold back when slapping or dig in harder when playing fingerstyle. I get the same problem when changing between pick and fingerstyle. Pick is always louder. Sure, I can adjust my playing to compensate but then I won't get the tone I want. I want a more aggressive, bright tone then using a pick and a softer, fatter tone when playing fingerstyle. That means a significant difference in output volume.
A compressor is not the solution here. A compressor should be used to even out differences between indivudual notes (or to shape the envelope). In this situation you would probably end up with a heavily compressed, choked tone at ALL notes when slapping. Not a good idea.
Your best option is probably a clean boost pedal for when your playing softer. Or maybe a two channel preamp with individual output level settings on each channel.
Of course you can also simply turn down the volume on your bass when slapping, unless you think this changes the tone too much (might depend on the type of bass).
It MIGHT also be an eq related problem. If your tone is leaning towards a bit too much highs/upper mids they might cut through a bit too much when slapping. That might cause a perceived difference in output.
Unless the engineer is a total amateur I would at least listen to his suggestions and try to find a solution. Getting into an argument with the engineer is rarely a good idea...
A compressor is not the solution here. A compressor should be used to even out differences between indivudual notes (or to shape the envelope). In this situation you would probably end up with a heavily compressed, choked tone at ALL notes when slapping. Not a good idea.
Your best option is probably a clean boost pedal for when your playing softer. Or maybe a two channel preamp with individual output level settings on each channel.
Of course you can also simply turn down the volume on your bass when slapping, unless you think this changes the tone too much (might depend on the type of bass).
It MIGHT also be an eq related problem. If your tone is leaning towards a bit too much highs/upper mids they might cut through a bit too much when slapping. That might cause a perceived difference in output.
Unless the engineer is a total amateur I would at least listen to his suggestions and try to find a solution. Getting into an argument with the engineer is rarely a good idea...
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THANKS EVERYONE! 
A ton of positive responses and things to check for and/or try.
Talkbass is an awesome community!
More Info:
I need to point out that I play for a Pentecostal (Holiness) church and, if you’re not familiar with that type of worshiping, they like things LOUD and FAST!
It was after yesterday’s service when the sound guy made his comments, not during my sound check or the service, and I very seldom adjust my volume after a sound check. My bass vol is usually full open. I use different plucking techniques to accommodate the prayer music from Talk Music, Shout/Praise Break and Choir support music. My premise is that the sound guy makes FOH volume adjustments.
Update:
I unpacked my pedal board and set it up to see what’s going on with it.
I’m certain this was a user error on my part with the bass I was using and how I was using it, and the Bypass setting on the Eden WTDI.
First, the bass.
A PRS GG5 active/passive, but without batteries installed, which would have given the board a weaker signal. I like the sound of this bass this way.
Second, the Eden WTDI.
The Bypass light was ON, meaning the effects circuitry is bypassed, but the signal is buffered/weak.
Conclusion:
1) Review mentioned suggestions about plucking techniques and signal strengths to House board.
2) Learn and understand the best settings on my pedals for the basses that I use.
3) Review pedal board settings and ensure they are best set for the bass I’m playing.
4) The answer the my original question was, I missed what the Eden WTDI buffering bypass does to the signal out and that my PRS GG5 has a weak signal when in passive mode, which has nothing to do with plunking techniques or the need for a compression pedal.
A ton of positive responses and things to check for and/or try.
Talkbass is an awesome community!
More Info:
I need to point out that I play for a Pentecostal (Holiness) church and, if you’re not familiar with that type of worshiping, they like things LOUD and FAST!
It was after yesterday’s service when the sound guy made his comments, not during my sound check or the service, and I very seldom adjust my volume after a sound check. My bass vol is usually full open. I use different plucking techniques to accommodate the prayer music from Talk Music, Shout/Praise Break and Choir support music. My premise is that the sound guy makes FOH volume adjustments.
Update:
I unpacked my pedal board and set it up to see what’s going on with it.
I’m certain this was a user error on my part with the bass I was using and how I was using it, and the Bypass setting on the Eden WTDI.
First, the bass.
A PRS GG5 active/passive, but without batteries installed, which would have given the board a weaker signal. I like the sound of this bass this way.
Second, the Eden WTDI.
The Bypass light was ON, meaning the effects circuitry is bypassed, but the signal is buffered/weak.
Conclusion:
1) Review mentioned suggestions about plucking techniques and signal strengths to House board.
2) Learn and understand the best settings on my pedals for the basses that I use.
3) Review pedal board settings and ensure they are best set for the bass I’m playing.
4) The answer the my original question was, I missed what the Eden WTDI buffering bypass does to the signal out and that my PRS GG5 has a weak signal when in passive mode, which has nothing to do with plunking techniques or the need for a compression pedal.
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D
Also, unless the engineer is the lazy type he really should be able to work the faders and adjust the level of the bass as needed. Especially if he is a regular who is familier with your style of playing, knows the repertoire, the room, the equipment, etc. But like I said, getting into an argument with the engineer might not be the best idea...
