What boutique models are holding their value?

[Flintc]

lamarjones:

exactly, meaning tailor made to ones specs, doesn't matter if its you.

It sure matters to ME if it's me! I've tried out some bases tailor made for others that just don't work for me at all. I didn't buy them. I suppose I could have pondered whether I could flip them at a profit, but I confess this didn't even cross my mind. I was looking for something to play, not flip.

 

[lamarjones]

lamarjones:

It sure matters to ME if it's me! I've tried out some bases tailor made for others that just don't work for me at all. I didn't buy them. I suppose I could have pondered whether I could flip them at a profit, but I confess this didn't even cross my mind. I was looking for something to play, not flip.

And this is enough to decide what terminology to use?

I have to admit, I don't think we are on the same page.

 

[Bass Thunder]

And this is enough to decide what terminology to use?

Speaking of terminology, apparently I own a few of them but I have never used the term "boutique" bass in my life. Nor have I seen that word used more often than here on TB.

Funny stuff.

What's the opposite of a "boutique"? Wal Mart?

 

[Flintc]

lamarjones:

And this is enough to decide what terminology to use?

I have to admit, I don't think we are on the same page.

Probably so. The initial issue had to do with expensive basses holding their value. What I've been trying to say is that IF the expensive bass was made specifically to match some particular customer's specifications, it's unlikely to match exactly what many others want. I tried to raise the question of how high a premium (over secondhand) customers in this price range might be willing to pay to get exactly what they want. I've been presuming that a bass tailored specifically for one person would be worth the most to that person, and thus lose market value in the estimation of other potential customers.

I don't know if this is a terminology issue; I don't think so. I suppose we could call it custom or boutique or just very expensive. But I'm personally willing to pay a bit more to get exactly what I want, all else being equal. And I understand Brad saying it pays off for him to know, down at the level of specific transactions (for what, when, for how much), what a bass will bring on the market.

Honestly, offhand I can't think of any other reasons why a well-cared-for custom bass would lose value. I don't see that a brand-new custom bass would be higher quality.

 

[Brad Johnson]

Or, to put it another way, you've had your finger on the pulse of resale values for quite a while. In a sense, you check it often. I think if I turned over several basses a year (or thereabouts), I'd keep my finger on that pulse as well.

I did this when I didn't turn instruments over too. I've always been interested in the market.

Let me see if I understand this. You knew from (at least) one previous transaction that the particular custom bass you just bought would have a market value exceeding what you paid for it! I'll take your word for this, but I don't understand. If I wanted one just like it, why would I pay you more for yours, than I'd pay Brubaker to duplicate it for me? Or are you saying that the cumulative profit you made over a sequence of trades of other basses offsets any loss you might suffer selling your new one (under duress)?

The latter. I explained the chronology in the previous post.

Then I used a misleading word. I mean, something that attracts you because of everything involved in the entire package.

Not being fickle, if I know I like something, I like it. I rarely change my mind about something I really like because, probably unlike a lot of people, I really know what I do and don't like. Therefore the chance of me taking a loss because I no longer like something is practically nil.

Case in point: on Monday night I took out my 1984 Tobias hybrid 5. I hadn't taken it on a gig in at least ten years. It sounded amazing and gigging with it was just like riding a bike. The coolest thing is that it has a pop sound that I'd forgotten about, sounding like no other bass I've come across. Almost sounds like it could rip a speaker apart. I loved that bass back in 1984, I loved it for the ten years I regularly used it and I still love it. I bought it new and this bass is worth way more than I paid for it... not like there's a snowball's chance I'll ever sell it.

I plan on using it more often now... heck, it's my bass.

OK, I can accept the "know" part more than the "care" part. If I do my homework, and decide that IF some bass doesn't work out for me, I'll eat (say) $2000, and I decide that I personally find that risk acceptable, then this is willful but not ignorant. Maybe even reckless, but not ignorant.

Many people don't even "care" enough to find out prior to making a purchase and "know" beforehand. The terms can go hand in hand.

I would speculate that you're in the minority among those who buy and sell basses fairly often. Playing instruments, and buying and selling instruments, are two different skills. I admit I admire your ability to do both. I'm more of a collector type - I find it hard to part with anything EVEN IF I don't play it and could make a profit. It's part of a collection; collectors just like HAVING stuff, I guess.

I know I'm in the minority and glad to be there... I try to hip people to the possibilities. Most people are shocked at what's actually doable thanks to depreciation. It's not like it's some big secret being kept from people, you have to want to know to actually gain some knowledge. My daily driver (a BMW Z3 Coupe) is a pretty rare $40k+ sports car I picked up for $11.5k in excellent condition. Most people can't believe it. I own one of what was Fodera's top of the line model (back in 1992), an Anthony Jackson Contrabass; rare, sought after and thanks to a tip from a TBer I picked it up for $2500. If you know Foderas you'll know what a crazy deal that is.

Now, I have a day job that uses up a bunch of my time, and a wife who uses up most of the rest, and I also practice several instruments and read a lot. In my causual looking around, I don't see these deals crop up very often - maybe never. Hey, if I stumbled onto someone willing to take that kind of loss, I'd do the same as you - it would be damn hard to lose on a deal like that. But how about if that $4K bass (new) were selling for, say, $3400? $3100? I'd probably need a VERY good current market knowledge, or have a customer already lined up. And keeping that much market knowledge current probably takes more time than I have, without giving up something else. Giving up something else is a very real cost.

In the time you spent in this thread I had several eBay searches that run constantly, I looked at Bassgear.com, checked the local craigslist all while doing my job. Organization is your friend. It's amazing how "lucky" people who look often are

Maybe I didn't explain it very well. Maybe I did mean custom? Some while back, someone was selling a custom bass here, and in the pictures it looked pretty. Not only that, the seller wasn't hopelessly beyond field-trip range to try it out, get the sound and feel in person. But the seller was asking 85% of the cost of a new one, and given my druthers, I'd have chosen different woods, string spacing, electronics, and hardware. This is what I was thinking when I referred to "used" ("pre-owned" is fine also). I had to decide if the 15% price reduction over new was worth this list of features that weren't my first preference.

Now, I suppose if I were buying it to flip, I might be more tolerant of the existing features. But to me, that 15% simply wasn't enough of a discount to deter me from having one made to my exact preferences new. If my notion of what's worth how much is typical, I'd worry nobody else would find it a bargain either. And so I tentatively concluded that used boutique basses usually sell at deep discounts over new because of the "just the way I want it" factor.

I wouldn't pay anywhere near full value for something like that, I'd wait for something closer to what I wanted or order a bass. I've never been even slightly disappointed with a bass I've ordered... I think because I know what I want and have learned how to articulate that. I also don't commit the cardinal sin of trying to get a luthier to reinvent the wheel. I would not sooner ask Kevin to make a Fodera clone than asking Mike Tobias the same thing... I'd ask Mike for an MTD and Kevin for a Brubaker or something relevant to either design.

I think this sums up the different orientations extremely well. Changing owners changes the relationship between owner and bass. No, it doesn't change either the bass or the owner, only the relationship. But to me, this relationship is important. When you ordered your custom bass, you say "There was pretty much no chance of me not being happy with this bass based on the choices I made and Kevin's abilities as a luthier." And this is because you made YOUR choices. Nothing against Kevin's skills, but that bass might not work so well for someone else. The bass itself wouldn't change, but it would have been built for someone else. So the bass changes in terms of how the new owner relates to it. One man's junk is another man's treasure.

It still doesn't change what the bass is. How can a custom stop being a custom because of ownership?... it was still custom made. A tailor-made suit that doesn't fit is still tailor made. It doesn't turn into the alternative, off the rack. Right?

I personally don't think I'd be happy passing up something that I found hit my own sweet spot dead center, on the grounds that I'd lose too much later if I changed my mind. As a collector, I don't often change my mind. If I buy only what I love, it's easy to keep it.

Again, I'm fortunate in knowing what I want, how to get what I want out of what I'm looking at (or understanding I can't) and have been blessed with the patience of a crocodile. I can wait indefinitely, I don't jump on the first stiff breeze that blows and then regret the move immediately after, I don't buy into hype, in fact I'm very leery of it.

That all equates into great deals for me and more money in my pocket. I know I'm not missing a thing

Going into more debt than you can dig out of, of course, is inexcusable regardless.

And losing money on a purchase is a good way to get there... so I don't.

 

[JimmyM]

A well-cared for custom bass will lose value on the used market simply because you can buy a new one, so what's the use of buying one used for the same price as new?

And I don't know about you, but I have heard many a horror story about someone buying a custom bass that they thought was exactly what they wanted, then they get it and discover that it wasn't what they wanted at all. And now they're stuck. Maybe you're better at knowing what you want than others, but it does happen.

And by the same token, why wouldn't someone want a bass that wasn't made especially for them? Just because someone else spec'ed it out to what they like doesn't mean others wouldn't like it, too.

 

[Brad Johnson]

lamarjones:

Probably so. The initial issue had to do with expensive basses holding their value. What I've been trying to say is that IF the expensive bass was made specifically to match some particular customer's specifications, it's unlikely to match exactly what many others want. I tried to raise the question of how high a premium (over secondhand) customers in this price range might be willing to pay to get exactly what they want. I've been presuming that a bass tailored specifically for one person would be worth the most to that person, and thus lose market value in the estimation of other potential customers.

I don't know if this is a terminology issue; I don't think so. I suppose we could call it custom or boutique or just very expensive. But I'm personally willing to pay a bit more to get exactly what I want, all else being equal. And I understand Brad saying it pays off for him to know, down at the level of specific transactions (for what, when, for how much), what a bass will bring on the market.

Honestly, offhand I can't think of any other reasons why a well-cared-for custom bass would lose value. I don't see that a brand-new custom bass would be higher quality.

There are lots of reasons why even an immaculate custom base would lose value... they pretty much all boil down to demand. A friend of mine bought #1 in a series of new basses by a known builder a few years back. I played it and thought it was one of the lamest instruments I'd ever played, I've honestly had more fun playing Silvertones. He thought it would be valuable because it was the "first bass" and that made it collectible. I disagreed.

He never liked the bass and eventually decided to get rid of it and the results were predictable. Nobody wanted it. He spent at least a year trying to sell or trade it and finally traded it for a fraction of what he paid for it. Took probably a 75% loss. The bass was still like new... and obviously if it was lame new, it was still lame used

 

[Brad Johnson]

A well-cared for custom bass will lose value on the used market simply because you can buy a new one, so what's the use of buying one used for the same price as new?

And I don't know about you, but I have heard many a horror story about someone buying a custom bass that they thought was exactly what they wanted, then they get it and discover that it wasn't what they wanted at all. And now they're stuck. Maybe you're better at knowing what you want than others, but it does happen.

And by the same token, why wouldn't someone want a bass that wasn't made especially for them? Just because someone else spec'ed it out to what they like doesn't mean others wouldn't like it, too.

+1 on all of this.

My Elrick semihollow New Jazz Standard fretless 5 is a great example of the last part. The original owner had it custom made and it's still one of a kind. He decided he didn't want to put the time in to learn to play fretless, I already knew how. He sold it to me for about 1/4 of what he paid for it a few months prior. That was his asking price. Why would he ask so little? Beats me.

I think I've mentioned before, my crack negotiating skills pretty much consist of "So... how much will you take for it?". That's all. The response determines whether or not it's a go for me. I don't haggle.

 

[A9X]

The original owner had it custom made and it's still one of a kind. He decided he didn't want to put the time in to learn to play fretless, I already knew how.

If he liked it otherwise, why didn't he get it fretted? Makes more sense than taking a bath on a sale.

 

[A9X]

And I don't know about you, but I have heard many a horror story about someone buying a custom bass that they thought was exactly what they wanted, then they get it and discover that it wasn't what they wanted at all. And now they're stuck. Maybe you're better at knowing what you want than others, but it does happen.

That's why I'm reluctant to get a custom made, even though I've thought about it and even made some enquiries. I think I'd probably be safe with a Status as I have a predilection for composites and I think it would greatly reduce the variables. Maybe as a "I've paid off the mortgage present" in a couple of years.

And by the same token, why wouldn't someone want a bass that wasn't made especially for them? Just because someone else spec'ed it out to what they like doesn't mean others wouldn't like it, too.

Both my Alembics were custom orders, bought secondhand and I'm very pleased with the original buyer's specs, especially the S1. I'd probably have ordered a bit different, but for the prices paid, I don't care.

 

[Brad Johnson]

If he liked it otherwise, why didn't he get it fretted? Makes more sense than taking a bath on a sale.

I don't know if he liked it or not. Didn't ask either. He came up with the changes he wanted from Rob's standard designs, guess they didn't work out for him.

He had Fodera and A Bass fretted basses at the time.

 

[MultiScaleMale]

Don't know if this counts as a bass, but Chapman Sticks seem to hold their value very well.

 

[lamarjones]

Custom for you vs. Custom for someone else.

I agree that a lot of this 'terminology' is just on TB use, although these days I do run into some TBers occassionally. Kinda crazy Everyone else, I think they plain couldn't care less.

But, people are saying custom is custom no matter what (I had a Fodera that was basically the Edwards shape, but the lower horn was pointed down, that is custom no matter which way you slice it), and the thought is that having a custom for YOU is worth/not worth the price of commissioning said bass.

Here is how I see it.

Take a F bass, why? Cause I ordered one a then flipped it, what can I say, it was nice but in retrospect I should have just gotten a J. (this is in NO WAY a dig at George, the dude was cool from start to finish, highly recommend him) ANYWAYS, price was about 4 grand. USED price of an F bass of that level is probably 2500.

So that is 1500 simply to have the specs of my choice, when in all actuality, I just really wanted a custom color, and there were other colors that probably would have done it for me (it had other bling points to it, but so did the other ones I saw).

You can either take the approach that if you buy it, you will NEVER flip it so that 1500 will never make a difference. However, there are tons of people on this board who have been in the same boat, so its not like what I am saying here is just an exception, it happens a lot! And the only way I don't personally feel bad about it is that I have been fortunate to accumulate a positive flow from smart buying and sellng otherwise. Mind you, I never try to sell something way over what it is worth. SOMETIME people might now I bought a bass for something and now flipping it for 400-500 more, but seriously, I couldn't care less about that fact. They should have snagged it at that price if they got a problem with it. Picked up a 635 with a wenge wenge neck for 1500, flipped it for 2100. You think I feel bad about selling a W/W 635 for 2100? That buyer should thank me.

Either way, when that custom arrives at your door, BOOOM, you lost 1500. Yeah, I know people have gotten more for their brand new bass, but if you take a look at all their transactions monetarily, I think the truth in numbers come out.

BJ aside of course

 

[Flintc]

This all sounds like very good financial advice:

1) Be patient. Good deals don't come along every day, so wait until they do.

2) Be flexible. The wider your zone of indifference, the more likely you are to be pleased with a bass tailored to someone else's tastes.

3) Be informed. At the very least, keep track of ebay transactions. Find other places (including the TB classifieds) to get a good estimate of used prices. You should have an accurate idea of resale value even if you never intend to resell.

4) Know yourself. If a bass you loved when you first got it has lost its appeal over time, you didn't know what you wanted. At the very least, learn from this experience. Never buy anything *hoping* it will work out.

Well, I can say I've never changed my mind, or lost interest in a bass. I know pretty well how much I'd lose (if any) trying to sell each bass I own. But part of knowing yourself is knowing you don't resell or flip anything. If I know I'll keep it and know I'll stay happy with it, I'm not going to lose sleep over how much I might lose trying to sell it.

 

[Brad Johnson]

Custom for you vs. Custom for someone else.

I agree that a lot of this 'terminology' is just on TB use, although these days I do run into some TBers occassionally. Kinda crazy Everyone else, I think they plain couldn't care less.

But, people are saying custom is custom no matter what (I had a Fodera that was basically the Edwards shape, but the lower horn was pointed down, that is custom no matter which way you slice it), and the thought is that having a custom for YOU is worth/not worth the price of commissioning said bass.

Here is how I see it.

Take a F bass, why? Cause I ordered one a then flipped it, what can I say, it was nice but in retrospect I should have just gotten a J. (this is in NO WAY a dig at George, the dude was cool from start to finish, highly recommend him) ANYWAYS, price was about 4 grand. USED price of an F bass of that level is probably 2500.

So that is 1500 simply to have the specs of my choice, when in all actuality, I just really wanted a custom color, and there were other colors that probably would have done it for me (it had other bling points to it, but so did the other ones I saw).

You can either take the approach that if you buy it, you will NEVER flip it so that 1500 will never make a difference. However, there are tons of people on this board who have been in the same boat, so its not like what I am saying here is just an exception, it happens a lot! And the only way I don't personally feel bad about it is that I have been fortunate to accumulate a positive flow from smart buying and sellng otherwise. Mind you, I never try to sell something way over what it is worth. SOMETIME people might now I bought a bass for something and now flipping it for 400-500 more, but seriously, I couldn't care less about that fact. They should have snagged it at that price if they got a problem with it. Picked up a 635 with a wenge wenge neck for 1500, flipped it for 2100. You think I feel bad about selling a W/W 635 for 2100? That buyer should thank me.

Either way, when that custom arrives at your door, BOOOM, you lost 1500. Yeah, I know people have gotten more for their brand new bass, but if you take a look at all their transactions monetarily, I think the truth in numbers come out.

BJ aside of course

I make no secret about what I pay for instruments and it's funny when people expect me to pass along the instrument at the same price just because. If I bought the gear at an insanely low price and am only selling it at a ridiculously low price, I don't see the problem. Like you said, if they wanted it for the price I got it for, they should've done what I did and gotten into position to do that.

 

[Brad Johnson]

This all sounds like very good financial advice:

1) Be patient. Good deals don't come along every day, so wait until they do.

2) Be flexible. The wider your zone of indifference, the more likely you are to be pleased with a bass tailored to someone else's tastes.

3) Be informed. At the very least, keep track of ebay transactions. Find other places (including the TB classifieds) to get a good estimate of used prices. You should have an accurate idea of resale value even if you never intend to resell.

4) Know yourself. If a bass you loved when you first got it has lost its appeal over time, you didn't know what you wanted. At the very least, learn from this experience. Never buy anything *hoping* it will work out.

Well, I can say I've never changed my mind, or lost interest in a bass. I know pretty well how much I'd lose (if any) trying to sell each bass I own. But part of knowing yourself is knowing you don't resell or flip anything. If I know I'll keep it and know I'll stay happy with it, I'm not going to lose sleep over how much I might lose trying to sell it.

Me neither. I have lots of basses that I really don't care about resale value because I'm not selling them. They'll go to my son when I'm gone and he can deal with it... of course by then it's all profit for him

 

[malthumb]

...
This all sounds like very good financial advice:

1) Be patient. Good deals don't come along every day, so wait until they do.

2) Be flexible. The wider your zone of indifference, the more likely you are to be pleased with a bass tailored to someone else's tastes.

3) Be informed. At the very least, keep track of ebay transactions. Find other places (including the TB classifieds) to get a good estimate of used prices. You should have an accurate idea of resale value even if you never intend to resell.

4) Know yourself. If a bass you loved when you first got it has lost its appeal over time, you didn't know what you wanted. At the very least, learn from this experience. Never buy anything *hoping* it will work out.

Well, I can say I've never changed my mind, or lost interest in a bass. I know pretty well how much I'd lose (if any) trying to sell each bass I own. But part of knowing yourself is knowing you don't resell or flip anything. If I know I'll keep it and know I'll stay happy with it, I'm not going to lose sleep over how much I might lose trying to sell it.

Well said. I actually have an Excel spreadsheet that details what I paid for just about every bass I've ever owned. Who I bought it from when. And If I sold it, I know who I sold it to and for how much. Even used that to try to buy back a fretless 2 years after I sold it.

I also "mentally" keep track of what each bass I own could sell for, based on stuff I see transacting on eBay, Bassgear, and here.

To your 1st three points, when I decided I wanted an Alembic Series I or II 5 string bass, I had a pretty good idea of what I could expect to pay for a used one, as opposed to a new one specced out to my liking. The spread was pretty substantial, but I wound up ordering new because I couldn't find 5 strings being sold used. Lots of 4s, no 5s. So when I ordered the new one, I loaded it up with stuff that I could have lived without if I found a decent used one. This was back in 2000 and I still have the bass.

...I have lots of basses that I really don't care about resale value because I'm not selling them. They'll go to my son when I'm gone and he can deal with it... of course by then it's all profit for him

I'm pretty much down to 6 basses now. Ironically, as much as I preach the value of buying used, only 2 of my 6 are used. The 3 that I custom-ordered are likely to be passed down to my kids. Even so, I consistently keep track of the "going rate". In the event somebody makes an unsolicited offer that exceeds my "ain't gonna sell it" point.

Peace,

James

 

[cnltb]

Don't know if this counts as a bass, but Chapman Sticks seem to hold their value very well.

Are there custom chapman sticks?

 

[T-MOST]

Ken Smiths, MTDs and Sadowskys.

 

[Jim Carr]

Holy Zombie threads, Batman.

Investing can be a lovely thing. I wonder how many boutique basses gained 60% in value in the last year like most of my mutual funds? BTW, I have retired since this thread started, LOL!

No more teaching music. Now I just play bass.