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What chord is this??

Discussion in 'General Instruction [BG]' started by theshadow2001, Aug 28, 2005.


  1. theshadow2001

    theshadow2001

    Jun 17, 2004
    Ireland
    Ok I know this is more guitar related but I was reading an article on chords and it got me thinking about "High and Dry " by radiohead. One of the chords looks like this:

    e--0-- E
    B--0-- B
    G--2-- A
    D--4-- F#
    A--X-- X
    E--2-- F#

    Now its been doing my head in what the name of the chord is. Is it F#m7add4
    or simply F#m(11) or most likely F#m7add11. Im thinking maybe not just F#m11 because theres no 9th in there but on second thoughts theres no 5th there either so maybe it is F#m11

    Anyways its wrecking my head a bit so if someone could tell me I would be greatful
     
  2. Tash

    Tash

    Feb 13, 2005
    Bel Air Maryland
    This is actually a specific kind of terachord (a 4 note chord) often used in 20th century atonal compositions. Its really just 2 perfect 5ths whose roots are seperated by a whole step: A-E, B-F#.

    There is a specific name but it escapes me right now.

    You cna certianly call it a number of things, but without a 3rd SOMEWHERE its hard to give it a traditional "name".
     
  3. JimmyM

    JimmyM Supporting Member

    Apr 11, 2005
    Apopka, FL
    Endorsing: Ampeg Amps, EMG Pickups
    I would call it a F#m7add11.
     
  4. Lyle Caldwell

    Lyle Caldwell

    Sep 7, 2004
    Memphis
    If the root is F#, then it has a minor 3rd, making it F#m7 add 11.

    If the B is the root, it's B7 sus 4.

    It's very unlikely that the root is an A or an E, as the resulting chords are so wishy washy with no implication of a third or a seventh.
     
  5. slybass3000

    slybass3000 Banned

    Nov 5, 2004
    Montréal,Qc,Canada
    Don't forget that when you voice chords, the first note you take out of the voicing is the fifth because it doesn't contribute much to the color of the chord. So,it is normal to take it out and it usually helps to release the heaviness of the chord. It sounds more open. In the example here, if you put the A an octave higher, you would have a perfect fourths stack of notes which would give you a really open sound to the F#min7 sus4.
    You would not call it F#min11 because there is no 9 in the voicing here.
    Hope this will help,
    SB
     
  6. dlloyd

    dlloyd zzzzzzzzzzzzzzz

    Apr 21, 2004
    Scotland
    With all due respect and all, that's not correct.

    The 9 is implied by the presence of the 7 and the 11. "add" is only used when there is no 7.

    It's common practice to voice extended chords by omitting notes, usually the 5th, and all lower order extensions. Guitarists and pianists can also get away with omitting the root... it's the job of the bassist. The 5th is also implied by the root, being the third partial in its overtone series.

    So you might get a 13 chord voiced with only the 3, b7 and 13, an 11 chord might only have the 3, b7 and 11, etc.
     
  7. Lyle Caldwell

    Lyle Caldwell

    Sep 7, 2004
    Memphis
    Right, F#m11. I forgot about the "add 11" only when there's no 7.

    And it's not a sus 4 chord because it has the third.
     
  8. slybass3000

    slybass3000 Banned

    Nov 5, 2004
    Montréal,Qc,Canada
    Sorry but you are wrong on this. Every time you add extensions to a chord,it includes all the notes underneath unless there are conflicts between there functions . So, that's why there are terms like "add"and "omit"sometimes on written chords. A Dmin13 would have all the seven notes in it.
    And for the purpose of writing,when you specified a sus4 on a minor chord it means that the third is present in the chord,very often meaning that it is close to the sus4. If you write add 11, the instinct of the musician would be to place the 11 on top of the voicing and have the instinct of playing the ninth as well which would not give you the sound wanted.
    I know there are many differents ways of presenting such theorical aspects of music,and it all depends on your background and knowledge and the experience you have in writing and composing.
    This can be an endless debate,unfortunatly.
    SB
     
  9. dlloyd

    dlloyd zzzzzzzzzzzzzzz

    Apr 21, 2004
    Scotland
    No, this isn't correct. A minor 13 chord only requires the root, b3, b7 and b13.

    ?

    A chord cannot be suspended if there is a third present.

    I don't know too many people that would use a 9th in an 11th chord. Most people who deal with extended chords regularly would use shell voicing.
     
  10. Guitar power calls it

    Gbm11 (no 5th, no 9th)
     
  11. Phil Smith

    Phil Smith Mr Sumisu 2 U

    May 30, 2000
    Peoples Republic of Brooklyn
    Creator of: iGigBook for Android/iOS
    It's an F#min7(add 11 omit 5), if it had the 5th it would be F#min7(add 11). The add notation IS used when there is a seventh present. Don't take my word for, consult any Chuck Sher Real Book which uses chord symbols outlined in "Standard Chord Symbol Notation" by Carl Brandt and Clinton Roemer.
     
  12. slybass3000

    slybass3000 Banned

    Nov 5, 2004
    Montréal,Qc,Canada
    Like I said,this could be an endless and stupid debate especially when you don't know what YOU are talking about,unfortunately.

    A Dmin13 is: D F A C E G and B.
    All min11 chords include the 7 AND 9 unless written so.
    A dom.11 cannot have the major third and the perfect 11 in it like you posted earlier.

    Please before posting info, make sure you know what you are talking about. There are some people here who want to learn the right way.

    Sincerly,
    SB
     
  13. JimmyM

    JimmyM Supporting Member

    Apr 11, 2005
    Apopka, FL
    Endorsing: Ampeg Amps, EMG Pickups
    Sly, how do we know that you're not the one who doesn't know what he's talking about?
     
  14. dlloyd

    dlloyd zzzzzzzzzzzzzzz

    Apr 21, 2004
    Scotland
    Resisting the temptation to rise for the bait in that post, I'll ask you a question:

    On a typical jazz gig, if a guitarist is reading a chart that includes, say, the chord G13, how will he play it? Will he include the 9 and 11? The most commonly used voicing for G13 is 3,x,3,4,5,x... which is G,F,B,E.

    In this example stated in the original post, where we're coming up with a specific name for a specific voicing, I'll concede that, yes, it may be more appropriate to call it min7add11.
     
  15. dlloyd

    dlloyd zzzzzzzzzzzzzzz

    Apr 21, 2004
    Scotland
    He does. He called me on a couple of things that I agree with. I stated that a minor 13 had a b13, when it has a 13. I stated that it was usual to voice a dominant 11 R,3,7,11, when it's actually usual to drop the major 3rd as it clashes with the 11.

    I still don't agree that an 11th requires an explicit 9th in the voicing though :)
     
  16. Phil Smith

    Phil Smith Mr Sumisu 2 U

    May 30, 2000
    Peoples Republic of Brooklyn
    Creator of: iGigBook for Android/iOS
    It doesn't require it, the symbol implies it. XMin11 contains 7th and 9th, XMin13 contains 7th, 9th and 11th, X13 contains 7th and 9th, XMaj13 contains 7th and 9th.
     
  17. slybass3000

    slybass3000 Banned

    Nov 5, 2004
    Montréal,Qc,Canada
    I didn't want to sound too heavy in this post but as an educator at university level,I find difficult on forums like this to make sure the infos are well presented. There are differents ways to see harmony and differents schools of thought. So,pretty much everybody are right here.
    In the context of POP music we rarely see 5 and 6 parts chords,so,that is why it is better to see the original chord(F#min7sus4) more like a 4 parts chords then anything else.

    Peace everyone,
    SB
     
  18. dlloyd

    dlloyd zzzzzzzzzzzzzzz

    Apr 21, 2004
    Scotland
    When the chord is taken in its context, it's pretty clear Thom Yorke wasn't thinking in terms of min11, min7add11, or min7sus4 when he wrote the song. The progression includes a series of 5 chords that all have open B and E strings.

    The chord in question is simply an F#m chord with open B and top E strings. The fifth is probably omitted only for practicality (it's difficult to finger).
     
  19. slybass3000

    slybass3000 Banned

    Nov 5, 2004
    Montréal,Qc,Canada
    +1

    I would be curious to know what was before and after that chord.
    I think I'll go listen to it!

    SB
     
  20. theshadow2001

    theshadow2001

    Jun 17, 2004
    Ireland
    Well thanks guys for all your input. Now lets keep it moving!!

    To me this seems like the most accurate way of describing the chord as it takes into account all aspects ie the 11th interval the lack of the 5th the minor 3rd and 7th and the root F#. Although I must admit I've never seen "omit" used before in terms of chords.

    The root is most definitely F# in the context of the song. The bass sticks more or less to roots and uses F# over the chord (ok ok that doesnt necessarily mean that F# is the route but it becomes obvious when you hear/play the song)

    But this debate has opened another interesting aspect of playing chords on bass (and other instruments) as most of us are 4 stringers the amount of notes is limited compared to that of a guitar or piano or even a six stringer.

    Due to this limitation when playing chords we are going to have to leave out certain voicings from the chord. I can see that the fifth is usually the first to go but what about more complicated chords like 13ths 11ths etc. What voicings can be used and omitted but still retain the quality of the chord. I'm giving 13ths and 11ths as an example but would like to hear about other chords as well.

    I understand that there is no absolute rule much like anything else in music. In fact the only rule that would seem to apply would be "if it sounds good do it" But I would like to here some opinions on this as well and maybe some common approaches to this matter.