What Happened with Big Box Music Stores?

[overit]

I remember those days seeing high end stuff on the racks, even if they were way up high and needed a ladder to get to them, but at least you could see them.

The GC in Las Vegas has a high end room with some high end pieces and a couple vintage basses. They are all locked up but it’s nice that they can be seen. I think all the basses were $4k+ last time I looked. Some Fender Custom shops, a Fodera or two, 60s jazz… Guess it depends on the city. The GCs in the burbs in NJ didn’t have a room like that when I left 3 years ago.

 

[arbiterusa]

Didn't anyone ever have a "you break it you buy it" policy in place? You scratch it and you pay for the repair, etc?

How are you going to enforce that? Practically, never mind legally. I learned two fingers lesson the hard way in the mid 80s. Rue the day I ever bought any high end basses into my store. Every player in the county tried 'em out and not a one had any intention much less ability to buy them. Every player in town would bitch about dead strings on them even though I was restringing them every two days. Hell, we ate any potential profit on those instruments in strings alone. When I left a year and a half later they were still on the wall. I never made that mistake again.

And I want to be very clear: customers did this to themselves. The reason the mid and high-end basses aren't in the big stores is because people just come in and wreck them.

 

[ThudThudThud]

Some concert musicians’ own instruments that have trusts associated with them, and insurance policies that rival those of sailing yachts. Why? These is something to be said about build quality, especially with acoustic instruments. I would like to see someone CNC machine a violin that rivals the tone, quality, and playability of a priceless Stradivarius. Maybe there are more to an instrument than the wood, strings, electronics, nuts, & bolts of the thing.

Not many electric bass players buy a separate seat on a plane for their instruments. Concert musicians regularly do.

 

[jemerpi]

How are you going to enforce that? Practically, never mind legally. I learned two fingers lesson the hard way in the mid 80s. Rue the day I ever bought any high end basses into my store. Every player in the county tried 'em out and not a one had any intention much less ability to buy them. Every player in town would bitch about dead strings on them even though I was restringing them every two days. Hell, we ate any potential profit on those instruments in strings alone. When I left a year and a half later they were still on the wall. I never made that mistake again.

And I want to be very clear: customers did this to themselves. The reason the mid and high-end basses aren't in the big stores is because people just come in and wreck them.

I assume it would be like a short-term rental agreement. We look at the instrument, note what's wrong and sign off on it, you have a certain amount of time, if you bring it back late or with something else wrong, there are standardized costs associated with any infringement, and since I have your credit card on file you are charged. Unless you decide to buy it, of course.

If someone is serious, they will take the risk. If not, you don't want them playing your instrument, anyway.

 

[Greg Pruitt]

I think retailers can do a lot better than full MSRP, which is just a made up number any ways. One local retailer that I hit up every few months (it's a bit of a drive) will often beat online retailers by quite a bit without me asking. I've wondered if I look like one of their high roller buyers or something. It's one of the stores that was a mom and pop and went bigger to survive rather than going smaller.

Point taken. That is what volume buying is intended to do, reduce the cost of goods the seller and buyer.

 

[EarlTroutman]

The Sam Ash store in Madison, TN has made a slight turn-a-round with business. Last summer (2021) they had no bassses hanging on the walls (that's a zero). Last week they had about 30 and none were priced much past $500. A small one-owner shop for mainly just basses in the Orlando area has a 'give my your belt' policy if you want to try anything out. No belt - no bass. I checked their website a few weeks ago and they have a lot of high-end basses in stock. Just be ready if you go to hand over your belt.

 

[jemerpi]

The Sam Ash store in Madison, TN has made a slight turn-a-round with business. Last summer (2021) they had no bassses hanging on the walls (that's a zero). Last week they had about 30 and none were priced much past $500. A small one-owner shop for mainly just basses in the Orlando area has a 'give my your belt' policy if you want to try anything out. No belt - no bass. I checked their website a few weeks ago and they have a lot of high-end basses in stock. Just be ready if you go to hand over your belt.

In front of "no belt, no bass," I think I would want to add "no bank card" to ensure any damages are paid for, as well as to demonstrate financial resources.

 

[slam dunk]

Whatever happened with Big Box music stores. I recall, seemingly not too long ago, you could buy really nice mid-level to high-level bass guitars from the Big Box music stores. Brands new like Pedulla, Zon, Modulus, Warwick, Rick, Lakeland, Fender Custom Shop, Ken Smith, etc. Yeah, some of the names I listed may no longer be in business. Now, if you see a nice mid-tier bass in the store, its used. What happened that they are no longer selling mid-tier new in the Big Box music stores?

Compare this to car dealerships. High end, loaded, luxury/sport models vs. practical, every day, reasonably priced cars. Who moves more product?
Personally, if I saved every penny I make playing gigs for a year, I’d have enough for a relatively “high-level” bass. Would it make me a better player? I seriously doubt it. Would I get a better tone? Possibly
Most of my earnings are needed elsewhere. I’m happy with the average basses I have, and occasionally, someone even compliments me on my playing and tone.

 

[KenPompanoBeach]

There was a MARS MUSIC in Ft.Lauderdale for a BRIEF moment in time. Great Store....Arturo Sandoval played the Grand Opening...saw Skunk Baxter in a free workshop there....and won a high end cord in their drawing. But people tested/played/handled the life out of guitars and basses. I personally heard a couple fall off the hooks. OUCH!! But few people actually BOUGHT.....I Did purchase a Roland Bass Amp on deep discount.....And never liked it.

 

[amper]

The primary culprit is poor financial management of the companies themselves. Mars was so poorly mismanaged that they had to be liquidated.

As for GC, A lot of higher end manufacturers simply won't sell to them anymore. Guitar Center has been on the verge of bankruptcy for about a decade, now. I can't remember the last time I saw any truly pro-level gear at a Guitar Center that wasn't used, unless it was a Fender or Gibson, companies who absolutely depend on the big-box stores for their sales volumes.

While the pandemic may have breathed some new life into the industry, it remains to be seen whether or not GC will ever recover their former position.

The COVID-19 pandemic saved Guitar Center from bankruptcy

 

[amper]

Store profit is related to stock turnover. A $3000 bass on the wall is not the same value as 10 x $300 basses leaving the store.

The math does not add up.

Look, I'm a former retail purchasing manager. You can't take a loss on an item but make it up in volume.

Store profit is related to profit margins, not sales volume, and it takes ten times as much work and selling space to sell ten $300 basses as it does to sell one $3000 bass. An expensive instrument sells itself, a cheap instrument, you have to convince people to buy it.

 

[gln1955]

The math does not add up.

Look, I'm a former retail purchasing manager. You can't take a loss on an item but make it up in volume.

Store profit is related to profit margins, not sales volume, and it takes ten times as much work and selling space to sell ten $300 basses as it does to sell one $3000 bass. An expensive instrument sells itself, a cheap instrument, you have to convince people to buy it.

This is obviously not true or every GC would be loaded with high end basses.

 

[dspellman]

Hmmm. I thought the main debate was where are the "mom & pop" brick and mortars. Guitar Center posts all seem to be rants of perceived injustice.

Whatever. I have no faith in guitars purchased off the wall in a GC these days. The good news is that there's a 45-day return policy. GC associates just don't take care of the expensive stuff and they're usually too busy (with no one in the store) to get one down for you if it's out of reach. I walked into one several years ago, and they had a really nice vintage Ibanez 2219 (I think that's the model) from the late '70's. It was on a lower tier. I told one of the associates to put it up higher or the locals would steal the speed knobs (these were about $45 each on eBay at the time). Next time I went, the guitar was still there and the knobs were gone.

Currently there's a GC that has an Avatar 2x12 bass cabinet in the used area. Unfortunately, it's ticketed as a "4x12", and despite my mentioning it to a couple of different employees, it looks like it's going to stay that way.

Most GCs have no "back stock" -- there's a display unit or box with nothing behind it. They can "get one for you in two weeks from our fulfillment center" and there's no guarantee that it won't be a return being resold as new.

 

[EliCat]

On a related note, how does one buy mid-tier basses these days without flying blind? I tried a Zon Sonus in 1996 in Guitar Center Boston and put down the $2k for a new one after playing the one on the floor. But if I want to buy a new Zon or a MTD, there's no where to play one in the Boston area to see if I like it or not. Am I just doomed to buy it blind and resell it on Reverb if I don't like it? What do other people do?

 

[EarlTroutman]

Maybe I just was lucky, but my first Warwick was a 1994 Fortress One 5-string. It was beat up, dirty, really not in good shape. But it sounded so fine that I sold/gave away my other cheaper bases and that one became my one and only. So about 2012 I'm wasting my time looking here at what was for sale and saw another Warwick, about as beat up as my Fortress was. But it would have cost new several thousand more than the Fortress. So without every holding or playing one, I bought it. I had to take a chance but I'm glad I did. I had it set up at the Nashville Warwick shop (which is not open to the public) but was advised to not try to make it look good. So it still looks like poop but man o man does that thing rock out. To this day I have never seen one on display, new or used, at any Nashville music store. I was just lucky. 2008 Warwick Corvette $$ 5-string, Nirvana Black with all gold hardware.

 

[Stratabass]

Not a big box store by any means, but there was a wonderful bass-centric store, Bass Specialties, in Bensalem, PA, just outside of Philly. Glenn, the proprietor, great guy, carried mostly mid to high end basses and amps. It is where I got my Genz amps and Bergantino speakers. He would host clinics and master classes by top-tier players, usually at very low cost or free. I’m sure that Glenn wasn’t directly making any money on those. He really created a very special place for bassists. He had to close because too many people were coming in trying out gear (he really had to watch because some overly aggressive slappers especially were abusing the gear) then buying online to save what amounted to just a few dollars. Glenn provided a worthwhile service, that deserved to be paid for. I would tell everybody that it was in our own best interest to make Glenn a rich man. It is unfair and ultimately unwise to only consider the perceived upfront price and ignore the true cost of providing the service. There is no free lunch. If trying out gear before buying is important - I certainly think so - then the cost of that service should be paid for in the upfront price.




6Bass101 has an interesting idea about charging folks to try out gear. I wonder where the line would be for people to cross the psychological barrier of paying for the service independently of the price of the gear. I imagine it would only work for very high-end gear. I also think that some people would feel as if they didn’t have to be as careful with stuff since they were “paying for the privilege.” That could lead to a lot of cosmetic or worse damage that would then have to be depreciated.

 

[Stratabass]

A local store here in Louisville rents instruments. Tho not typically high end equipment, it could be a possibility. I rented a fretless bass for a couple of weeks, and it was fun playing some songs I was familiar with( Bad Co. Pink Floyd) it didn't make sense to me, personally to buy a fretless when I had other ambitions.

 

[Stratabass]

A local mom&pop music store carried some more expensive guitars from the big corporate manufacturers, then, the Gibbys and USA Fenders stopped coming and the store was full of Epis,Squiers, Rumbles and Mustangs. Seems the national chains got dibs and the 1 store guys got shafted. I bought a new bass at GC, but why are salesmen such gear snobs on the stuff they sell? OK, it was a CV 70sJazz by Squier. My daughter bought it for a Father's day gift, after I hadn't played for 3 or 4 years. She spent $450 for the bass,case and necessities. I would return later to buy a nicer bass,IF, the Home Depot of guitar dealers could be slightly less condescending. They ripped my gifted bass,that I was extremely happy with,( except for the set up by the BB store). I've since purchased 2 $1200+ basses from a guy that's always glad to hear from me. My sales associate at SW. I never had to send 1 back due to a bad set up, or misrepresentation, I got detailed pics of MY bass and even if there was a hiccup in delivery, I got a freebie bonus and the same friendship that used to be a local phenomenon. I live about 25 miles,mostly interstate from BB, GC store. It's much more pleasant calling my guy, maybe wait a few minutes while he is with another customer, have a great conversation and my new bass is on my doorstep in 3 or 4 days. Even my mailman and the FedEx guy go above and beyond when they deliver to me.
Or get the stink eye from a snob. The choice is simple for me. So I don't try them out in the store. At home I can crank it up and play my simple bass lines for me, not the sales staff. If I'm not satisfied,I can return it. No questions. 2 year warranty through the store. Only had one input jack go south on me and the round trip from me to them and back took a week and 2 days. I'm 63, and I'm not too keen on buying online,but it can be done in a quality fashion.

 

[PhatBottomBass1]

Chuck Levin's here in the DC area stocks top-shelf Warwick, Spector, EBMM, Fender top to bottom, best Ibanez, Sire, Smith and Brubaker...in quantity.

Very impressive!

Bass amps Quilter, Darkglass and Ampeg.

I had the good fortune to meet and talk with Brian and a couple of his regular customers in Nashville at The Low End Bass Shop. Great and diverse selection of new and used Basses and a few select amps (consignments) Helborg, Trace Series 6 and a couple small Eden items. Not a focus.

However, the Demeter 201s (with the Demeter 800 Class C upgrade) into his shop branded cabinets (2x12 IIRC) as a reference rig for testing Basses was off the charts! Very cool vibe in that shop...call ahead.

With the Reverb market, SWEETWATER, Warmoth and Atomic Music in this area...Big Box Music is really dead to me not being a beginner.

 

[DJ Dru]

Sort of like wearing a Rolex watch. Yeah...it's a high quality beautiful watch...but it won't keep time any better than a Timex.[/QUOTE]

Who buys a Rolex to tell time? LOL