What Happened with Big Box Music Stores?

[el murdoque]

Whatever happened with Big Box music stores. I recall, seemingly not too long ago, you could buy really nice mid-level to high-level bass guitars from the Big Box music stores. Brands new like Pedulla, Zon, Modulus, Warwick, Rick, Lakeland, Fender Custom Shop, Ken Smith, etc. Yeah, some of the names I listed may no longer be in business. Now, if you see a nice mid-tier bass in the store, its used. What happened that they are no longer selling mid-tier new in the Big Box music stores?

In my neck of the woods, you get a rich choice from super cheap up until US made Fender. Above that price point, there are a few Warwicks and CS Fenders and that's basically it.
If you ask me, that is because when I buy a Pedulla, Fodera, Le Fay or Alembic, I expect it to be perfect in every possible aspect. With the smallish custom builders, I can provide the specs and have the instrument built to my wishes. When I want a Squier P bass, I don't go online or call someone. I'd much rather visit a place that has lots of them and play as many as it takes to find the one that jumps at me.

 

[Basslice]

My God son is an amazing keyboard player. He reminded me that a quality instrument does indeed change things for the player. He sat in front a Steinway, played it and realized that an exceptionally well-made instrument indeed makes a difference in how the player connects with the instrument.

Very good point. A lot of this is subjective. Another bonus for a high end instrument is aesthetics. They can be truly works of art. The choice of wood grain, texture and shape. These are things that don't hit me, but I get it.

My son is also a piano player and there I totally think that price matters a lot. There are a lot of instruments (especially acoustic instruments) where you can just keep getting better and better sound and playability as you climb the ladder. I just think (my own personal opinion) that there is only so much physical strata for electric guitars and basses. It is a hunk of wood with strings. If the dimensions are right and the shape, the rest is in the electronics and a person's mind.

In my youth, I used to wander around 48th street too. I had to take a train down from the sticks (picking my toes in Poughkeepsie anyone?). It was a marvelous experience to go to those stores. Then again, now you have websites with pictures and videos. Not the same thing, but you can experience thousands of instruments in detail which is something I could not do back then.

 

[3bc]

Good to know they're still in business. I thought they were closed. Looks like the website is saying showroom is closed though, so maybe not a walk-in-and-try situation anymore?

Google seems to show they have hours they are open. Maybe call them and ask if they have appointments available. If you're a serious buyer I'm sure they'll be happy to let you in. I have stopped in to get some cables in the last year or so. Been in to see lakland a number of times since the pandemic started. I think if you call ahead and you're a serious customer with a track record they'll be happy to set up a time.

 

[Katoosie]

Well, I would definitely hate to be an instrument store owner. I am actually surprised they do not charge you for trying out high end stuff.

They should, would help them I guess.

 

[chadhargis]

One of the things driving retailers away from the uber high end stuff is how much better the "cheap" basses have become. Some of the overseas made instruments are outstanding. Spending $1000-$1500 on one of the quality overseas models like a Lakland Skyline, Sadowsky Metro, G&L Tribute (which are less than $1000), Sire, etc....will net you a bass that is a professional quality instrument.

A Fodera, Alembic, Ken Smith, Roscoe, etc. might look prettier and give you more enjoyment based on the fact that it's a premium product, but they aren't necessary.

Sort of like wearing a Rolex watch. Yeah...it's a high quality beautiful watch...but it won't keep time any better than a Timex.

 

[Eilif]

Google seems to show they have hours they are open. Maybe call them and ask if they have appointments available. If you're a serious buyer I'm sure they'll be happy to let you in. I have stopped in to get some cables in the last year or so. Been in to see lakland a number of times since the pandemic started. I think if you call ahead and you're a serious customer with a track record they'll be happy to set up a time.

That's sort of the rub for me. I'm so dang content with the gear I have that I haven't had Bass GAS in years and it's moot anyway since I haven't got the cash for more.

I wouldn't feel right setting up an appointment and wasting a proprietors time just looking around. If there were open hours, I'd be much more likely to stop in if I were in the area just to browse and maybe try something out, or to play a bunch of basses and justify my presence by buying a set of strings or somesuch.

 

[3bc]

That's sort of the rub for me. I'm so dang content with the gear I have that I haven't had Bass GAS in years and it's moot anyway since I haven't got the cash for more.

I wouldn't feel right setting up an appointment and wasting a proprietors time just looking around. If there were open hours, I'd be much more likely to stop in if I were in the area just to browse and maybe try something out, or to play a bunch of basses and justify my presence by buying a set of strings or somesuch.

Yeah, I guess the by appointment hours style thing is perfect for them. For a serious customer you'll appreciate the local store with the great selection and setting an appointment to try that bass you think you really want is a good thing. For the rest of us, it keeps us from getting small nicks from our button down shirt all over the back of a $10,000 bass we have no intention of buying.

Same boat as you, I don't really have a new bass in my future at any point in the next several years I can't imagine.

 

[ThudThudThud]

Store profit is related to stock turnover. A $3000 bass on the wall is not the same value as 10 x $300 basses leaving the store.

 

[Dadum]

Well, I would definitely hate to be an instrument store owner. I am actually surprised they do not charge you for trying out high end stuff.

They should, would help them I guess.

What would the market accept? What would you pay? $10 per hour in $10 increments? Becomes a store credit toward buying a guitar over $400, expires after 60 days?

 

[Katoosie]

What would the market accept? What would you pay? $10 per hour in $10 increments? Becomes a store credit toward buying a guitar over $400, expires after 60 days?

10 dollars per hour is more than reasonable imho.

 

[ElectricBass72]

Interesting thread. I agree with those who say the internet and capitalism killed Big Box Music Stores.

 

[Dadum]

Store profit is related to stock turnover. A $3000 bass on the wall is not the same value as 10 x $300 basses leaving the store.

OK. What is your estimate of the profit and turnover on these items? How can a small store make enough to stay in business in today's market? Huge retailers usually targets total sales numbers. What store mix should a small local retailer have to survive now days?

There are some industries where a manufacturer "supports" small retailers by only selling through them. That is usually by smaller players who need shelf space. The arrangement is mutually beneficial. If there are not a lot of smaller manufacturers doing that, never selling direct to the public and only selling through an authorized dealer, I don't see how small local businesses can survive selling expensive guitars.

Any ideas on how small stores can survive? I think music lessons for beginners was one way but "independent" private or group lessons seem to be "everywhere" now days. If I google search for them, lots of people or companies offer them close to me. Stand-alone music schools seem to be plentiful and profitable.

 

[StoneBassCentrl]

Being an Employee of a store like BASS CENTRAL Definitely makes me appreciate what we carry in stock so much more. It is beyond aggravating going to your local big box store and seeing fewer basses than at your local pawn shop.

 

[Buster Brown]

Interesting thread. I agree with those who say the internet and capitalism killed Big Box Music Stores.

I distinctly remember when I first came to KC - it was fairly common to head out to the Musicians Friend warehouse and by returns, seconds and (generally) cheap crap for a great price. Now? Even that has stopped..got to order online.

I kinda miss those days.......

 

[ThudThudThud]

OK. What is your estimate of the profit and turnover on these items? How can a small store make enough to stay in business in today's market? Huge retailers usually targets total sales numbers. What store mix should a small local retailer have to survive now days?

There are some industries where a manufacturer "supports" small retailers by only selling through them. That is usually by smaller players who need shelf space. The arrangement is mutually beneficial. If there are not a lot of smaller manufacturers doing that, never selling direct to the public and only selling through an authorized dealer, I don't see how small local businesses can survive selling expensive guitars.

Any ideas on how small stores can survive? I think music lessons for beginners was one way but "independent" private or group lessons seem to be "everywhere" now days. If I google search for them, lots of people or companies offer them close to me. Stand-alone music schools seem to be plentiful and profitable.

A $3000+ bass on the wall is simply not generating any revenue at all. It's overhead.
The $300 basses leaving the store are generating profit. Even if it's $40 a bass (it's not), that's $400 profit.
The $3000 bass is not generating profit until sold. How many $300 basses can be sold for every one $3000 bass?

Also, the lad/lass buying the $300 bass is possibly going to be a beginner. They'll need an amp, a strap, a cord, maybe a case ($3000 basses usually come with one...), and possibly lessons. Possibly a good source of additional profit for the store.
The lad/lass buying the $3000 bass is only buying from big box because he/she is getting a deal - because they know what they want and how much they'll pay for it - or has found something usually hard to find. He/she has all the accessories they need.

 

[Greg Pruitt]

Some concert musicians' own instruments that have trusts associated with them, and insurance policies that rival those of sailing yachts. Why? These is something to be said about build quality, especially with acoustic instruments. I would like to see someone CNC machine a violin that rivals the tone, quality, and playability of a priceless Stradivarius. Maybe there are more to an instrument than the wood, strings, electronics, nuts, & bolts of the thing.

 

[rockdoc11]

Let's talk about Zons. If you wanted a Zon, would you really go to a music store to BUY one? TRY one, sure. Buy though? Isn't the point of ordering a boutique bass like this is that it is to your ordered specifications? This is the reason why you probably won't find big money basses hanging in a store. The big money ones you want direct from manufacturer. If I had waited for a local store to become a Zon dealer, let alone carry a Legacy Elite with the specifications I wanted, I'd still be playing garbage Fenders.

I still miss my local guitar store. I bought a LOT of guitars/basses/amps there over the years. But when GC came to town maybe 15 years ago, the store began a quick death spiral.

But the owner/manager did me a solid back in the 1990s that I will never forget. He had just started carrying Warwick basses, and he knew I liked high end bass gear. So one day he asked me about his Warwicks, and I said I just didn't like the way they felt in my hands.

He asked me what I DID like, and I enthusiastically told him about a Pedulla MVP that I had tried out in a big city/big box store a few weeks earlier. That MVP had become my "dream" bass.

He said, "I just got a letter from Pedulla. They wanted to know if I wanted to become a dealer."

I said, "Really! How many do you have to order to be a dealer?"

He smiled, and said, "One. You want it?"

So he and I sat down, and ordered the perfect Pedulla MVP for me, with every option I'd dreamed of. Then, since I'd done so much business with him over the years, he sold me the bass for not much more than his cost.

More than a quarter century later that bass is still my dream bass, and my main squeeze. And I don't see how that situation could ever be replicated in a big box store.

 

[bassGtar]

I was buying a 70-200 VR f2.8 and oof course with a few clicks I knew what B&H was selling for and I contacted the local camera shop and they obviously know what B&H was selling the lens for but they wouldn't budge on the price. Their price was full retail because of the support and advice they give. They didn't need two match B&H, just meet me in the middle or something. Oh, and their knowledge and advice was crap too. I tried to buy a book or something that was under $20 at the store and had att least two sales associates walk up, saw that I wasn't buying a new camera body and walked away. I tried to support them but their estimates of their own value was greatly inflated. I think they made it until 2012 or so.

Maybe that was really the big change with the internet, nobody needed advice that could be freely and easily obtained online.

Ouch, this hurts in so many ways. I can't walk on water, I've bought things on-line, I've price shopped (not in front of a business owner on my cellphone!), and made narrow economic decisions based on what was best for me in the moment. But specialty retailers can't "go half way to Amazon" and still make a living. And for all the people in your community who don't know exactly what they want, now they have to waste hours on the internet, probably get suckered into buying things they don't need, and have no-one to turn to when they have questions … if they still have jobs.

There is no free lunch, you, me and everyone else has to suffer the changes (as discussed on this thread). And worse than that, I fear we'll be talking about climate change like this in the not to distant future.

Not meaning to pick a fight or blame you for climate change , but your post hit a nerve in me.

 

[munnkyboy]

At this point in time....I've bought everything online...like for years...except when I found a great deal on a USA Geddy used at GC. All of my purchases have been great. I understand that a handful of people get a clunker and complain about it, rightly so, but it's not as if that 1 experience is the rule. Big Box to me is just going to sell, to the 'newbie' crowd. How many times have you been driving and see a GC and go in to check stuff out with NO intention of buying?

 

[MultiScaleMale]

Ouch, this hurts in so many ways. I can't walk on water, I've bought things on-line, I've price shopped (not in front of a business owner on my cellphone!), and made narrow economic decisions based on what was best for me in the moment. But specialty retailers can't "go half way to Amazon" and still make a living. And for all the people in your community who don't know exactly what they want, now they have to waste hours on the internet, probably get suckered into buying things they don't need, and have no-one to turn to when they have questions … if they still have jobs.

There is no free lunch, you, me and everyone else has to suffer the changes (as discussed on this thread). And worse than that, I fear we'll be talking about climate change like this in the not to distant future.

Not meaning to pick a fight or blame you for climate change , but your post hit a nerve in me.

I think retailers can do a lot better than full MSRP, which is just a made up number any ways. One local retailer that I hit up every few months (it's a bit of a drive) will often beat online retailers by quite a bit without me asking. I've wondered if I look like one of their high roller buyers or something. It's one of the stores that was a mom and pop and went bigger to survive rather than going smaller.