Double Bass What is big band /really/ about?

[Fredrik E. Nilsen]

Of course, there are many different ways to write for and play in a big band, but to me, the essence is musicians playing great together. No "look what I can do" or almost being able to play very difficult things. Just the sum of great musicians making simple things swing together. Not clinical perfectionism, but timing, phrasing, space, dynamics, attack, release, intonation. Listen to this, from 3'30 to the end. So simple, so difficult. This is what it's about, for me. (And double bass content: No ********, no fancy runs or anything. Just great swing).

 

[neilG]

I so prefer the sound of a miked bass over a pickup. That's a sweet sound.

 

[Wasnex]

I so prefer the sound of a miked bass over a pickup. That's a sweet sound.

IMHO, the mic sound better if the bass is isolated (for example in a recording studio), but a good pickup works better in a live ensemble.

Unfortunately a live mic on the bass will pick up the drumset and especially the cymbals almost as well as the bass.

 

[Wasnex]

Of course, there are many different ways to write for and play in a big band, but to me, the essence is musicians playing great together. No "look what I can do" or almost being able to play very difficult things. Just the sum of great musicians making simple things swing together. Not clinical perfectionism, but timing, phrasing, space, dynamics, attack, release, intonation. Listen to this, from 3'30 to the end. So simple, so difficult. This is what it's about, for me. (And double bass content: No ********, no fancy runs or anything. Just great swing).

I think all of the things you mentioned are important for ensemble playing. But having some fabulous soloist can really add to a show as well. Unfortunately truly fabulous soloist sometimes have toxic personalities and narcissistic tendencies that complicate matters.

 

[Fredrik E. Nilsen]

I think all of the things you mentioned are important for ensemble playing. But having some fabulous soloist can really add to a show as well. Unfortunately truly fabulous soloist sometimes have toxic personalities and narcissistic tendencies that complicate matters.

And: being a fabulous soloist and a great section player is often (not always!) mutually exclusive.

 

[Samatza]

We went to the Count Basie Orchestra concert last year, my son who is 18 years old is a big fan. The dynamics, drive and wonderful arrangements were inspiring.

The sound was great and every player got a solo. They looked like they were having fun and Scotty Barnhart has a great personality as a band leader. Carmen Bradford provided the amazing vocals, it was a great night out. My son was over the moon and would talk about it for months afterwards.

I think that at that level it's all about discipline and playing the arrangement. All the fundamental skills become important, time, feel and dynamics and that's what makes these guys sound great together. I love the sound of the upright bass, I wish I could afford one, it's amazing.

 

[4001]

I listen to the Buddy Rich Big Band a LOT... that is a whole other level of playing there.
Really incredible that Buddy never practiced..he was playing all the time.. and he didn't read music, which in that band, or any big band is almost a must, unless you could memorize all of that music... Buddy did....unreal.
I dig his records form the late sixties into the 70's...

 

[Fredrik E. Nilsen]

I listen to the Buddy Rich Big Band a LOT... that is a whole other level of playing there.
Really incredible that Buddy never practiced..he was playing all the time.. and he didn't read music, which in that band, or any big band is almost a must, unless you could memorize all of that music... Buddy did....unreal.
I dig his records form the late sixties into the 70's...

I agree, absolutely. Lots of fantastic players. But, he changed the band members very often, so the ensemble-playing never got to the Basie-level (and he didn't work on it the same way Basie did). You can hear it on most of the live records. There were a lot of mistakes and some sloppy playing (probably some players just got the charts right before the gig).

 

[4001]

I agree, absolutely. Lots of fantastic players. But, he changed the band members very often, so the ensemble-playing never got to the Basie-level (and he didn't work on it the same way Basie did). You can hear it on most of the live records. There were a lot of mistakes and some sloppy playing (probably some players just got the charts right before the gig).

He had a few core players like Steve Marcus on tenor but yeah, he often hired high school or college kids to play and they had little time, I'm sure. That also made for some interesting bus tapes..... Buddy never heard those from what I've read...
My favorite Buddy Rich album is "The New One". I really like the song "New Blues".
One of my favorite tracks is one from "Keep The Customer Satisfied", called "Cornerstone"...

 

[Fredrik E. Nilsen]

I think that at that level it's all about discipline and playing the arrangement. All the fundamental skills become important, time, feel and dynamics and that's what makes these guys sound great together.

Exactly. It's all about working on the simple, boring, fundamental skills. The result is amazing. I try to do that with all my big bands, but often they get impatient (typical of most amateurs). I've heard the Basie band twice, but never got to hear them with the man himself. It was still fantastic.

 

[Don Hergert]

To me, having played live in SBBs, the key to both the bass and the drums being heard throughout the piece is the muting of the horns. And of course a good sound crew doesn't hurt. This level of balance was so purposefully and tastefully done!

 

[Fredrik E. Nilsen]

To me, having played live in SBBs, the key to both the bass and the drums being heard throughout the piece is the muting of the horns. And of course a good sound crew doesn't hurt. This level of balance was so purposefully and tastefully done!

Yes. On the same time: the volume of the bass (and guitar) is basically the same throughout the whole tune. Freddie Green would move a bit closer to the neck on the pp-parts, and a bit closer to the bridge on the tutti parts, but that was it. A true master.

 

[Fredrik E. Nilsen]

To me, having played live in SBBs, the key to both the bass and the drums being heard throughout the piece is the muting of the horns. And of course a good sound crew doesn't hurt. This level of balance was so purposefully and tastefully done!

That's also one of the most difficult things for big band drummers to learn: Yes, you play ff on your snare on that kick with the horns, but the next beat is right back to mp. Playing ff with one hand and piano with the other and the feet is not easy!

 

[Don Hergert]

I'm a real sucker for great dynamic volume control. I try to use it in everything I play because I love the subtleties you can get. And I've come to recognize it in other players and bands. It is really difficult to achieve something like this with a big band, there are so many influences involved. The Count did a marvelous job!!!

 

[Fredrik E. Nilsen]

I'm a real sucker for great dynamic volume control. I try to use it in everything I play because I love the subtleties you can get. And I've come to recognize it in other players and bands. It is really difficult to achieve something like this with a big band, there are so many influences involved. The Count did a marvelous job!!!

Exactly. No one has ever said after a big band concert "I think they should have played louder", with the possible exeption of the Basie band.

 

[Steven Ayres]

The best approach I've seen is where the horns are playing one or two levels softer than the dynamic marks on the chart suggest. A band that masters this doesn't need stage reinforcement or monitors, everyone can hear everyone and can stay really tight, and the soloist can just stand up and make it happen without a solo mic. Old school is good school.

 

[KohanMike]

I'm the staff photographer for Gary Greene, Esq. and His Big Band of Barristers, a group made up of lawyers, judges and law personnel, many of whom were professional players back in the day, but had to make a living. They perform often for charity and private events. Recently the stand up bass player (who is excellent) moved across the country, and the only available legal profession bass player uses an electric bass guitar. I have to say, I don't notice a difference.

In the early 70s I was a production assistant for Stand Up and Cheer, The Johnny Mann Singers TV show that recorded their tracks with studio musician's like Ray Brown, Herb Ellis, Tommy Tedesco, Joe Pass, Frankie Capp, Paul Smith. Even though I'm a child of 60s rock and roll, I always loved swinging big band. One of my favorite movies is The Glenn Miller Story.

 

[neilG]

IMHO, the mic sound better if the bass is isolated (for example in a recording studio), but a good pickup works better in a live ensemble.

Unfortunately a live mic on the bass will pick up the drumset and especially the cymbals almost as well as the bass.

In this case he's obviously well enough away from anything that will get picked up by his mic. He's behind the piano, so I think that's intentional.

 

[Fredrik E. Nilsen]

The best approach I've seen is where the horns are playing one or two levels softer than the dynamic marks on the chart suggest. A band that masters this doesn't need stage reinforcement or monitors, everyone can hear everyone and can stay really tight, and the soloist can just stand up and make it happen without a solo mic. Old school is good school.

Exactly. The problem with amateurs is (very often) that soft means very little attack. They really have to work on playing soft with attack and phrasing.

 

[Fredrik E. Nilsen]

In this case he's obviously well enough away from anything that will get picked up by his mic. He's behind the piano, so I think that's intentional.

This mic won't pickup very much else, I think.