What is the correct signal path for me?

Discussion in 'Live Sound [BG]' started by LukeTariq, Apr 4, 2020.

  1. LukeTariq


    Jul 29, 2019

    I’m looking for some help, as I’ve just purchased an Eden Navigator Pre-Amp that should be arriving in a couple of days, but I’m unsure as to how to best incorporate into my rig.

    Leaving effects out of the equation for now, I am currently running my Iceni Zoot (Bass), into an EBS ValveDrive (Pedal), into the Glockenklang Heart Core (Head) through a Bergantino 112 (Cab).

    I would like to know how to use all three preamps, from the EBS, the Glock and the Eden.

    The Eden comes with a foot switch capable of bypassing all it’s boost, compressor and character controls etc., so am I correct in thinking I would be best simply running straight into the EBS (which can be stomped on or off anyway), and from there straight into the Eden, out (which out?) to the Glockenklang?

    Something about that doesn’t seem right? Please help!

    I understand there are probably six hundred and thirty thousand options here how to do this, so all and every piece of advice and experience would be hugely grateful. I’m currently in isolation so have only time on my hands to try all the various options and find what sounds best.

    For reference, I play in a fairly ‘dynamic’ band, level and range wise. There are six of us, and there are a lot of moments where it could be near pin drop silence bar a single harmonic mid song, or all out. I play in C standard on one bass for the night, so to have all of these tonal options in front of me is very important.

    Thanks a million!
  2. WayneP

    WayneP Supporting Member

    Oct 11, 2004
    Corpus Christi, Texas
    Since it’s last in line and you mentioned being able to bypass the Eden, it sounds like the Glock is your main piece?

    I can’t find any useful pictures of the Glock’s back panel, but if it has an effects loop you could connect the Eden there.

    If not, you could connect the Eden to the Glock’s main input via one the Eden’s outputs that is fixed-level, that also incorporates its processing. Perhaps one of the effects loop outputs. If that doesn’t work, then you of course will have to use the Eden’s main output. This will allow you to combine the signal of both, or bypass the Eden’s processing.

    If your use is “either-or,” getting an A/B switch device like the Boss LS-2 would be the ticket.

    Wayne A. Pflughaupt

    Ecclesia: Unique Arrangements of Hymns, P&W Standards, and Original Tunes
    Administrator, Pedulla Club #45
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    LukeTariq likes this.
  3. Wasnex


    Dec 25, 2011
    You could try randomly stacking all three in different orders to see which works best, but IMHO stacking three preamps is most likely a recipe for excessive noise and difficulty getting a good S/N ratio without undesired clipping.

    Why? A preamp takes a low level signal and amplifies it thousands of times, so it is suitable to drive a power amp at approximately line level. Because of this, the level at the output of the preamp is typically way hotter than the level at the input.

    Rather than stacking all three in series, I would suggest getting a switcher that allows you to select which preamp is actually in the circuit.

    Another possibility is to stack one of the preamps and then use an ABY to select between the other two. For example you could run the EBS at the beginning of your signal chain into something that Ys your signal into the other two preamps. Then use an ABY switch in your amp's Effects Return to select which preamp drives the output section.

    I have an MXR KFK graphic EQ that has dual mono outputs, which are intended for splitting the signal into two signal paths.

    Good luck.
    Last edited: Apr 5, 2020
  4. LukeTariq


    Jul 29, 2019
    Okay these are both really very helpful, so thanks a million guys.

    With regards to the line switcher/ABY that sounds like a good option, as the noise issue of stacking would be a concern. At the moment the Glock and the EBS are both absolutely silent when run at even the highest volumes, but I’m sure the navigator thrown in the mix on top of those is bound to create some noise. Maybe not but having to run all of them at assumingly low enough levels to not rip the lid off of the amp by the time it gets there would also be a worry. Would that be a correct assessment or presumption?

    Something like the Boss LS2 will give me the option to run either or or both won’t it?

    Thanks again good stuff lads really appreciate your time
    Last edited: Apr 5, 2020
  5. LukeTariq


    Jul 29, 2019
    For reference here is the back panel of the Glockenklang.

    If someone could also tell me what the ser. Insert is I would be very grateful.

    The front panel has separate passive/active inputs and a phones input.

    Having written that out I’m sure there is some send/return signal path-ing I could do there also regarding the separate passive/active inputs. Can anyone figure that one out?

    I play an active bass but tend only to use the passive input. The active input lacks the volume of the passive one, and as I mostly run this head at 200w through a single 8ohm speaker, (rather than at 400w through a 4ohm or two 8ohm speakers) I have no practical use for the active channel... possibly until now seeing as the Navigator is famously hot?

    Attached Files:

  6. Wasnex


    Dec 25, 2011

    I don't own any of this gear, so the only way to confirm my suspicions is to try it ;).

    I believe the LS2 can be programmed for the desired functionality. One potential problem is the input level is listed as -20dBu which is instrument level. I don't see the max input level listed, so I would contact Boss before ordering. I don't think you need the LS2's volume controls for this application. Also, source selecting is done with one button in a looping sequence (A, B, AB), which is not ideal. IMHO better to have a device with two buttons. One button allows you to toggle between A and B, and the other button gives you A+B

    The Radial Twin City might work, but it's a bit more expensive than the LS2. It's an active ABY pedal and the listed clip level is +9dBu. It would allow A,B or A+B.

    Twin-City - Radial Engineering

    Another product that might suit your needs is the Lehle D Loop. This is a looper pedal and one of it's configurations is 1 instrument, 2 preamps, 1 amp...The Lehle would allow you select which preamp you stack with your Glockenklang.

    The manual is here: https://v3.lehle.com/_data/products/D.Loop SGoS/Manual/Lehle-D.Loop-SGoS.pdf

    See the bottom of page 5.

    One potential downside of both the Radial and Lehle is they require 9V power supplies; neither runs on battery.

    Before you buy anything, I suggest you wait on the Eden and do some experiments to see how the three preamps get along. The results may inform your decision on what to buy and why.
    s0c9 likes this.
  7. Wasnex


    Dec 25, 2011

    I can't find a manual for the Heart Core, so I can only guess. On the front panel, the Heart Core appears to have a button to turn the Effects Loop on or off. I don't see an effects blend control anywhere on the amp. This suggests it has a series loop that can be toggled on and off. I believe the "Ser Insert" is just second series loop that is always on.

    Effects Loops can be series or parallel. I did find the Heart Rock manual and it says the effects loop is parallel. The Heart Rock has a Blend knob on the front panel for the parallel loop. The Heart Rock also has a second loop that is labeled "Insert" which is essentially a series effects loop. The nominal level for the Heart Rock's loops is listed as +4dB.
  8. LukeTariq


    Jul 29, 2019
    Wow thank you so much!

    What would speak to me there then in that case would be to run the Eden through the series loop, and the EBS as I am running it, out in front between the bass and the amplifier. Intuitively that would seem have produce the least amount signal extension or cabling through units. I may also try the EBS through the parallel loop now then and see if in the loop the natural tube compression of the pedal blinds nicely with the direct signal.

    Thanks a million for your help, very explanatory and exactly what I needed.

    I’ll come back to you when I get my stereo rig sorted haha!
    Wasnex likes this.
  9. s0c9

    s0c9 Supporting Member

    Jan 9, 2014
    1964 Audio artist, Fractal Audio Beta Tester
    I have a simple question....

    WHY... do you need three different preamps in your signal chain?
    Is it because you need multiple tones and want to switch between them?
    Curious... as I'm firmly in the KISS camp :)
    Zbysek, AGCurry and walterw like this.
  10. LukeTariq


    Jul 29, 2019
    Yeah I just need the tonal variety. There’s no actual stops in our set because of interludes and segues, so there’s a lot of transformation over the course of gig. I used a lot of different basses recording, because there’s a lot of very different sounding songs on the album. This isn’t necessarily a recreation of the album sounds either as it’s just a different thing live really, but certainly it gives a very audibly different flavour to each part of the set. It could be done with just one sound and an overdrive (excluding the effects needed) but that’s not we’re about. We have our own soundman as well so he’s like another member at these shows!
    Wasnex likes this.
  11. s0c9

    s0c9 Supporting Member

    Jan 9, 2014
    1964 Audio artist, Fractal Audio Beta Tester
    Rather than trying to integrate all 3 thru effect loops with a "master" driving it, have you looked into something like a pedal board switching unit?

    Would give you multiple switching options.
    Or, what about something like the Sansamp BDDI Deluxe that will store 6 different tones?

    Thinking out loud.
  12. LukeTariq


    Jul 29, 2019
    Well with the EBS out front or in the parallel loop, and the Eden in the series loop, I’ll be able to switch/cut in or out any of the pre’s, but I will need an effects switcher like the Boss unit there soon enough. I was using a G system for a long time with some other loops, but it’s too cumbersome, so I’ve been building a board to replace it. I see Dan the GigRig from That Pedal Show really swears by the MS3 you’ve linked so it may make the board! And then if that’s the case and it’s suitable I’ll try the pre’s through it as well. I’m also running a Yamaha Reface CP through a MicroSVT VR with a small effect board, but it would be nice to consolidate the two into a single stereo rig (hence the various pre’s) but I don’t think the SVT will be the second part of my A/B or L/R
    s0c9 likes this.
  13. walterw

    walterw Supportive Fender Commercial User

    Feb 20, 2009

    that has nothing to do with it; a hot input signal has nothing to do with how much headroom the actual power amp and speakers have, any more than pressing harder on the gas pedal will make your 100 horsepower car have 200 horsepower.

    anyway my vote is for less redundant preamping, not more; don't forget you have another preamp right there in the bass itself! hell, the best sound you could get might be the bass into whatever pedals you use for certain things, from there into a passive DI right to the PA! i bet the soundman would love you for that.

    barring that, i would try the eden preamp into the FX return of the bass head so as to bypass the bass head's (now-redundant) preamp and get straight to the power amp part. see which base preamp "tone" you like better (eden vs. 'klang), then just use that.

    i'll bet that if you got another identical 12 to put under the one you have now the resulting improvement in actual headroom and low end would lead you to sell off a bunch of that other stuff, you wouldn't need it to get a tone you liked.
    AGCurry and s0c9 like this.
  14. LukeTariq


    Jul 29, 2019
    I don’t have a headroom problem though?

    And I’m also not just after a single tone either, I need tones. I LOVE my bass straight into the Glockenklang. I love my Glock and EBS tone. I’m hoping that the Eden combinations will also give me the other tones I need.

    We have our own sound man as well so all this experimenting is fine!