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What Is the difference between a Professional Bass and a Bass player.

#41
I realize the entire discussion is kind of silly. Who cares what one is actually called! However, since it is the topic of the thread, and I find these sort of semantic issues interesting, what the heck.

Music is a strange beast. What about the person who graduated from Julliard and never got one of the rare and getting rarer symphony gigs? What if that person teaches grade school to make a living, but still keeps his/her playing skills up, hoping against hope for an audition and possibly a full time playing gig? Is he or she a professional musician? I would say no.

And, in reviewing my situation back in the day, I played full time for 10 years... six nights a week, and that is how I made my living. The people I played with were professionals... it is all they did and all they planned to do, and most had degrees in some form of music (jazz performance, education, whatever). However.... I attended college for that entire period of time, getting multiple degrees in a non-music field that I now have been working in for the past 25 years. Was I ever a professional musician? By my simplistic definition (making a living), I guess I was, but I never really considered myself a professional musician at the time... just a lucky SOB who played well enough to 'not have to work for a living' while I was going to school:p

Interesting topic to me:)
 
#43
KJung said:
I realize the entire discussion is kind of silly. Who cares what one is actually called! However, since it is the topic of the thread, and I find these sort of semantic issues interesting, what the heck.

Music is a strange beast. What about the person who graduated from Julliard and never got one of the rare and getting rarer symphony gigs? What if that person teaches grade school to make a living, but still keeps his/her playing skills up, hoping against hope for an audition and possibly a full time playing gig? Is he or she a professional musician? I would say no.

And, in reviewing my situation back in the day, I played full time for 10 years... six nights a week, and that is how I made my living. The people I played with were professionals... it is all they did and all they planned to do, and most had degrees in some form of music (jazz performance, education, whatever). However.... I attended college for that entire period of time, getting multiple degrees in a non-music field that I now have been working in for the past 25 years. Was I ever a professional musician? By my simplistic definition (making a living), I guess I was, but I never really considered myself a professional musician at the time... just a lucky SOB who played well enough to 'not have to work for a living' while I was going to school:p

Interesting topic to me:)
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I am guessing that this is one of those topics that we will never have a consensus on. I agree it was very interesting! Glad i brought it up.:bassist::bassist:
 
#44
KJung said:
Music is a strange beast. What about the person who graduated from Julliard and never got one of the rare and getting rarer symphony gigs? What if that person teaches grade school to make a living, but still keeps his/her playing skills up, hoping against hope for an audition and possibly a full time playing gig? Is he or she a professional musician? I would say no.
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Agreed. A very similar situation to this in another profession would come from sports. I have a buddy that played 4 years of basketball at U of M, and got his degree while there. After graduating he wasn't at the level of the players that get drafted into the NBA, but he had stints with NBA practice squads and training camps, as well as playing in overseas leagues a couple years. He still plays at a very high level, but has a day job in the field he got his degree in at this point, so he wouldn't call himself a "pro athlete" at all.
 
#45
KJung said:
+1 Obviously, lot's of wiggle room with some of these terms. The only term with no wiggle room is 'professional'. You either get the majority of your income from playing or you don't. If you don't, then you aren't a 'professional bass player'. This term again has nothing to do with 'how good you are', although as I mentioned before, there is a moderately strong correlation between 'talent' and the ability to make a living by playing.
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Don't entirely disagree - but Pro has a broader meaning to me than making a living. There are Pros under this definition then that make a living - but sometimes can only play in the Genre they have done well in and then only with the band they made it with. Take them out of their element and they can't hang.

So IMO if you have reached Pro status - you've got all the elements of a well rounded musician that could stand in almost any situation and hold your own.
Having this level of skill working or not - you still get the Pro tag from me. Particularly when you still make music at a high level - but earn you primary income from doing something else. For example, kick ass Lawyer, and kick ass Bass Player - the Lawyer gig is paying the bills.
 
#46
KJung said:
These terms mean different things to different people. Per the above, a 'professional' bass player is one who plays bass for a living, and doesn't really connote 'skill' or how well you play (although there is obviously a correlation between the two).

Semi-Pro is usually used to describe a highly skilled player who plays at a relatively high level, but has another source of income (i.e., as good as the best full time players out there, but only playing part time). Many Semi-Pro players were at one point full time 'professional' players.

Next in line down the food chain is the player usually described as a 'part time player' or 'weekend warrior'. These players typically play with other similarly skilled players, and most have never played professionally. These are the guys who need to rehearse with a band and learn the 30 tunes they play over and over again, etc. Most don't read, and most don't have any sort of formal training in music theory, etc.

Finally, there are the hobby-ists, who often don't even play out, and have limited skill or interest in developing into even 'part time player' status.

IMO.... labels are not that useful, but that is my understanding of how these terms are used and what they mean to most players.
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K, Great summary, and great points. But you forgot one catagory.

HACK, That's the one I'm solidly entrenched in.:D

As far as the difference between a pro and a non-pro the short answer is about $150 dollars a night.
 
#47
Honk'n_down-low said:
Don't entirely disagree ........ There are Pros under this definition then that make a living - but sometimes can only play in the Genre they have done well in and then only with the band they made it with. Take them out of their element and they can't hang.
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Exactly right. Take Bill Wyman of the Stones for example. I don't believe he could sub and make it through the night with a hack wedding band. However, he is the very definition of a professional bassist... one who makes (or at least made) their living playing bass. It again has nothing to do with 'skill', even though you would hope there is at least some relationship between being 'good' and making a living.

There are many 'professional bassists' that I have given lessons to in the past... guys who play reasonably well and made a living playing club gigs in rehearsed bands (at least before the bottom dropped out of that part of the business about 20 years ago). Many of these guys really 'couldn't play' by even my meager standards (i.e., poor technique, no reading skills, virtually no theory knowledge, etc., etc.). However, they were professionals... they made their living playing bass.
 
#48
Honk'n_down-low said:
Don't entirely disagree - but Pro has a broader meaning to me than making a living. There are Pros under this definition then that make a living - but sometimes can only play in the Genre they have done well in and then only with the band they made it with. Take them out of their element and they can't hang.

So IMO if you have reached Pro status - you've got all the elements of a well rounded musician that could stand in almost any situation and hold your own.
Having this level of skill working or not - you still get the Pro tag from me. Particularly when you still make music at a high level - but earn you primary income from doing something else. For example, kick ass Lawyer, and kick ass Bass Player - the Lawyer gig is paying the bills.
Click to expand...

I know I'm beating this dead horse, but I again like the topic a lot.

Here's the opposite way to look at things. I have a number of peers who are just amazing technical players. Massive chops, huge ears, great readers, they can play in many styles... simply stunning talents.

More often than not, when I hear them on club gigs or whatever, they are overplaying, doing 16th note fills in ballads, slapping where it is not particularly appropriate, substituting changes to make a song (in their opinion) sound 'more hip', etc., etc. To me, that is even worse than a hack making mistakes who is at least trying to serve the song and musical context.

Are these players 'professionals'? Well, if they are making a living by playing, then yes. It has NOTHING to do with chops or skill (or in the above example... behaving 'professionally' on the gig or having taste or making good musical choices).

I again, of course, understand what guys are defining as a 'pro player' in that more loose sense of 'behaving professionally and being skilled on the instrument', but that's a different thing, and is so nebulous as to lack any sort of specific meaning. IMO!
 
#49
I find this an interesting topic as well... :cool:. BTW - just because I question your opinion doesn't mean I'm 'correcting you' :smug:.

If my above post seems a bit off-the-wall, keep in mind that I've only had about 7 hrs sleep in the last 3 days.

A high school friend of mine (guitar player) makes his living by giving guitar lessons. The guy is an amazing instructor, can read and solo and improvise and just plain shred. But... his actual live performance 'odometer' with a band, has very few hours on it. He described a conversation with one of his distant relatives who is highly educated, musically, at an esteemed music college. As I recall, the relative is a complete whiz on theory, plus he could very well sit in with any symphony with sheet music and flat nail it. But, he is not a soloist at all, and quite puzzled at how my high school friend can just improvise and play off-the-cuff, or write songs.

I guess that is one of my biggest fascinations with playing an instrument, you can take it in so many directions:

teaching
playing live originals
playing live covers
recording
becoming a good sight reader
playing by ear
etc.

I've found that if you discover which direction fits in your head, go with it - patience and persistence will eventually pay off. Whether it be money or just the fun factor.
 
#50
lx_night said:
Great point, perhaps i did not express myself correctly.

Let me put it this way, There are some bass players that Are professional but in the eyes of others they are not because of certain reasons.

Besides being able to play or making playing your main source of income, What do you think are the qualities that a Pro must have?
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A pro will play what the job calls for.. regardless to whether he "likes" the music or not.. He will play it and he will play it well. I don't believe you can be a real pro and not read music.. You can act like a pro.. carry yourself like a pro.. but IMO a professional bass player is one who can walk into a room with either no musicians or musicians he has never seen or met.. be handed some music... go over it.. and play it.. get his check and bounce.........



At least that's what I think of when I think of a professional bassist.. or any professional musician really... otherwise you are just a person who plays music for a living... and don't get me wrong.. I am not poo pooing that... IMO that is no small feat..
 
#51
Chad Michael said:
KJung and Brad....

I think most of us agree that making money is a piece of the 'equation' (definition of pro), but you must have at least a couple of the above requirements to get through the gate.

;)

BTW TimK,

The only "pro" on planet earth, by your definition, is Will Lee :D.
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Will is for sure...!!! but he is just the most famous "PRO." there are a dozen guys that fit that descrption just in minneapolis. How many are there in NYC, Nashville, LA, Chicago, Europe?
 
#52
Chad Michael said:
KJung and Brad....

I think most of us agree that making money is a piece of the 'equation' (definition of pro), but you must have at least a couple of the above requirements to get through the gate.

;)

BTW TimK,

The only "pro" on planet earth, by your definition, is Will Lee :D.
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If he had said "pick two" that would've been cool..

"in my mind a true "pro" is the kind of person that can do all this".

Nope. Don't come close to agreeing with that. It'd be nice but it's far from necessary.
:cool:
 
#54
KJung said:
I know I'm beating this dead horse, but I again like the topic a lot.

Here's the opposite way to look at things. I have a number of peers who are just amazing technical players. Massive chops, huge ears, great readers, they can play in many styles... simply stunning talents.

More often than not, when I hear them on club gigs or whatever, they are overplaying, doing 16th note fills in ballads, slapping where it is not particularly appropriate, substituting changes to make a song (in their opinion) sound 'more hip', etc., etc. To me, that is even worse than a hack making mistakes who is at least trying to serve the song and musical context.

Are these players 'professionals'? Well, if they are making a living by playing, then yes. It has NOTHING to do with chops or skill (or in the above example... behaving 'professionally' on the gig or having taste or making good musical choices).

I again, of course, understand what guys are defining as a 'pro player' in that more loose sense of 'behaving professionally and being skilled on the instrument', but that's a different thing, and is so nebulous as to lack any sort of specific meaning. IMO!
Click to expand...


Dude, Amen to that!!!
 
#60
KJung said:
:confused:
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According to Merriam-Webster

Professional:

1) (a) characterized by or conforming to the technical or ethical standards of a profession (b): exhibiting a courteous, conscientious, and generally businesslike manner in the workplace

2) (a) participating for gain or livelihood in an activity or field of endeavor often engaged in by amateurs (b): having a particular profession as a permanent career (c) : engaged in by persons receiving financial return
 

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