What makes a good bassist ?

[Lee H]

I am intentionally going to play the part of the Devil's advocate here. I think stage presence is a huge thing.

I am not satisfied with the idea that a bassist should disappear. Part of what makes a gigging band marketable is the "fun factor" . There is no reason the bassist cannot move forward, play, sing, and be center stage

 

[suraci]

I can only comment that these remarks come across as very dogmatic. And that any kind of dogma is antithetical to the spirit of music...

It's not a zero-sum game. It really is possible to hold down the bottom end and play a good share of roots...AND to play with a distinctive, innovative style that adds much to the overall sound of the band. A lot of this will vary from one genre of music to another, even from one individual song to another...

MM

I have the greatest respect for bass players like Jaco who stretch the boundaries.
All I am saying is you have to get very comfortable with those boundaries, with those roots, with the known, before you delve outside in the cold.

And yes, genre is a factor, but nevertheless, i feel it was important enough to state ( I am accused of being dogmatic for stating something so fundamental- what is it about human nature that is repulsed by this- shrivels the spirit of music! )
bass is the art of playing the root. Of course other notes come into it, but root is the point of bass. Not melody. Melody is a secondary aspect to bass.
Play soprano sax for a while and maybe you will pause to acknowledge obvious truth of my words, dogma or no dogma.

 

[suraci]

I am intentionally going to play the part of the Devil's advocate here. I think stage presence is a huge thing.

I am not satisfied with the idea that a bassist should disappear. Part of what makes a gigging band marketable is the "fun factor" . There is no reason the bassist cannot move forward, play, sing, and be center stage

I am in a pretty nice mood, and I don't mean this mean spiritedly
but a person CAN walk, chew gum, and carry a conversation, right? Same with having a good time and playing the role of bass, and stretching the boundaries as well.

I don't know if it is a lack in my writing or if people just have difficulty keeping track of the multi nature of music.
have fun
play roots
be creative about it
etc
as you were

 

[winstonthecat]

Ok, fine.. occasionally the strong safety intercepts the football.
How many gigs have you played where you were not MAINLY ( as in large majority of the time- as in 90% of the time ) limited to playing roots, with fifths and thirds and an ostinato, and all of that? How often are you the melody guy?
With respect... as long as you play the lowest pitched instrument, you are likely to play the lowest note. And the lowest note HAS to be the root in the large majority of cases.
And If you are playing the roots down low, which we agree, sounds great to us, we cannot simultaneously being a melody guy.

I play in cover bands where I play mostly standard pop/rock/R&B bass lines. But I think it is too limiting to define a good bassist by what I play, and the music I play. There is room for a wide variety of expression and form in music.

 

[suraci]

Winstonthecat I have no clue what you just said about "too limiting".

It ought to be very obvious that basses role is roots and enhancements, ornamentation, variety, creativity all centered around the root.
For goodness sake, look at classical Indian music... is the person playing the tamboura undignified.. in chains, wearing a burka?
Ditto for "Salsa music"
Ditto for James Brown
What is going on with people who object to the obvious?

What is undignified about playing roots most of the time?
What note, if not the root is Rocco playing, on the beginning of a new chord change?
Same question for any number of bass players?

 

[Hamlet7768]

What I'd say makes a good bassist, besides one who plays solidly and keeps the groove et cetera et cetera, is one who can, for example, take the melody of the moment and construct (or even improvise) a suitable counterpoint that enhances rather than detracts from the song. John Myung does this very well in "Learning to Live" and other Dream Theater songs.

 

[suraci]

What I'd say makes a good bassist, besides one who plays solidly and keeps the groove et cetera et cetera, is one who can, for example, take the melody of the moment and construct (or even improvise) a suitable counterpoint that enhances rather than detracts from the song. John Myung does this very well in "Learning to Live" and other Dream Theater songs.

I just read that Flea while on a vacation from playing, studied counterpoint- a brilliant practice that I need to renew.

But most bass playing in many styles of music makes little ( although some ) use of extended counterpoint to a main melody

Eg . Whenever I can go contrary motion, I try to do so.
But groove is usually primary, and groove is less Euro contrapuntal.

 

[DougD]

What makes a good bassist ? In your opinion and what makes the greats ( jaco, Wooten , Clarke ) special ?

IMHO the thing that makes a great bassist, or musician is the ears. listening is a far too neglected part of musicianship. Most people just turn up to 11 and couldn't tell you what anyone else in the band is doing.

 

[James Judson]

A good bass player can play thousands of notes per minute.

A good bass player always plays to loud.

A good bass player says "it's about my tone man".

A good bass player "noodles" around every second the band is not playing.

A good bass player needs to tune 2-3 times per song.

A good bass player will wear out his welcome everytime he does a solo.

A good bass player is never on time.

A good bass player thinks "professional" is the kind of bass you play.

A good bass player never has time to learn his parts.

A good bass player thinks "everyone" came to hear him.

A good bass player brings enough pot for everybody.

A good bass player needs a break after each and every song.

A good bass player makes everyone else blend with him

A good bass player never shows up sober.

A good bass player doesn't have transportation.

A good bass player plays loud and calsl it "dynamics".

Oh, I gotta go my moms calling me.

 

[lfmn16]

Of course other notes come into it, but root is the point of bass. Not melody. Melody is a secondary aspect to bass.
Play soprano sax for a while and maybe you will pause to acknowledge obvious truth of my words, dogma or no dogma.

This is my last word on this because you are just saying the same thing over and over - you are mistaking your opinion for fact. No matter how many times you say it, it will not become true. Melody may be a secondary aspect to bass FOR YOU, but it doesn't have to be FOR EVERYONE. Bass may be the art of playing the root FOR YOU, but it doesn't have to be FOR EVERYONE. You may not think playing the root and fifth is limiting, but many people do. Congratulations for having found your role as a bass player, many people have different roles, clear?

 

[dideah]

I have no clue what you just said about "too limiting".

It ought to be very obvious that basses role is roots and enhancements, ornamentation, variety, creativity all centered around the root.
For goodness sake, look at classical Indian music... is the person playing the tamboura undignified.. in chains, wearing a burka?
Ditto for "Salsa music"
Ditto for James Brown
What is going on with people who object to the obvious?

What is undignified about playing roots most of the time?
What note, if not the root is Rocco playing, on the beginning of a new chord change?
Same question for any number of bass players?

Burka's are not Indian . Their traditional Arab clothing for woman

 

[suraci]

Very funny lol So are you telling me that India, does not contain female Tamboura players of Muslim persuasion??? India is 13% Muslim.... a lot of burkas.

I once read a book on the harmonic practices found in Bach chorales ( or all of Bach's music- I have forgotten that detail ) , that proposed to analyze how often Bach did this and that and the other chord progression; measuring in percentages!!!
I have never seen a book like it before. It was a text used at Eastman School of Music, if memory serves.
As a musician, not just a bass player, I have been more conscious of the math involved, in harmony.
I instead of arguing, wouldn't it be useful to actually look at what bass players actually do?
It depends on the genre, yes, but the more contrapuntal bass music is the exception, not the rule.
Let's pick some genre's and actually see.
I have not focussed on this, so I am coming from a experience, and a hunch.
My hunch is that roots are played on or near strong beats of a measure. If you reject that kind of nomenclature, then we are at an impasse, but for those of you who accept terms/ concepts like measure, beats, strong and weak beats; this might be an very interesting study.
My bet is on roots of chords are in the highest percentile by a considerable majority.
And roots of chords are the point of bass playing. All 12 notes in a western scale can be played, of course, but out of the 12 notes, when a eg C chord is played, my guess is if one deviates from hitting a C on your bass the majority of times, you will be looking for another band. But I am just irking those who think I am mistaken or dogmatic; so why not choose some styles of music to investigate?
Reggae, Disco, Dixieland jazz, Big band jazz, fusion, music of Jamaica, Cuba, James Brown.
As an older player, I know less about metal and related styles. That kind of music may be more melodic.
Still, my long time spent listening to bass players, and playing bass lines, suggests my bias towards roots on strong beats for chords.
Anyone interested in participating in an informal study, sans argumentation?

 

[suraci]

This is my last word on this because......

Promise!?
I would prefer that you engage in this conversation, but if you insist, that's your call, not mine.

 

[the yeti]

Anyone interested in participating in an informal study, sans argumentation?

although i see the point of the players who wish not to be pigeon-holed in the traditional bass role, i think the analysis you suggest will prove your point.

i'm not sure what that means exactly, but cool.

one thing for sure, no matter what your instrument, if you play with a vocalist you are a support player.

 

[suraci]

I never meant to suggest that playing roots- fifths, melodically as possible is not desireable.
I don't wish to argue, or annoy anyone. My short study of counterpoint in particular, taught me that yes, absolutely, ALL parts ought to be played with a melodicness in mind.
One does not merely play root, fifth, unmindful of melodic aspect. BUT it is a secondary melodic ness, not the primary one.
SOMEONE has to back down, someone in a trio or quartet has to make room for ONE person to be the PRIMARY holder of the "ball" so to speak. USUALLY that person is the traditional melody people, NOT the lowest pitched instruments.
A tuba CAN play a melody of course, and on occasion does, but, ALL Tuba melody is not for most people except Tuba fanatics! Ditto for bass, though Marcus Miller makes me a liar!!
We are talking about music here, not left brain logical things. Music is ambiguous, it is not 90 degree angles, but is subtle; so when I say essentially roots, I do not mean 100% of the time, though that has been known to happen in certain bands.
Ask yourself this which is 100 times easier to imagine, a bass player playing mostly root fifth ALL NIGHT, or ANY OTHER INSTRUMENT , guitar, sax, trumpet, etc.
That should help anyone who still has doubts.
The thread is about a good bass player, and I was not just addressing higher level players but all kinds of players who might see this thread.
I think bass playing like most highly involved disciplines, can be divided into stages and playing roots is an early stage, but even in later stages, the root is still IT for a bass player, except that he is more artful, more creative about it.
I am learning Latin bass style right now. I played in a Latin band decades ago, but had to read every single note. The man who wrote those notes was a gifted bass player himself, and the vast majority of those notes were root fifth. That is just one example. I invite others to join in with musical examples.
For context... please understand that I admire those bass players who excel at root fifth AND being highly creative about it, AND who solo... MArcus, Jamerson, Stanley, Paul Chambers, Mingus, Jaco, Holland, etc etc

 

[lfmn16]

This is my last word on this because......

Promise!?
I would prefer that you engage in this conversation, but if you insist, that's your call, not mine.

The problem is that we are not having a conversation, you are holding a lecture. You are stating a series of absolutes such as "root is the point of bass." and "Melody is a secondary aspect to bass." and "[the bass player's] role is subservient to the soloists." "[the bass player] is not a soloist like a guitar is."

I think that people far more gifted than I would disagree, i.e. Victor Wooten, Marcus Miller, Jaco Pastorius (if he were alive), Stanley Clarke. The support role is one possible role for a bass player.

The chief difference between us is that although I am happy to acknowledge the role that you want to take for yourself (although I won't be limited to that role), I haven't seen you acknowledge any other role. You seem to allow only for the role of the bass as you define it.

EDIT

You were posting at the same time as me. You post, "I was not just addressing higher level players but all kinds of players who might see this thread." That's my audience too. I don't want some beginning bass player to look at this thread and think that all they can do is play root and fifth, and support the soloist. I want them to choose a role that suits their musical goals with the bass as the vehicle they use to achieve their musical vision.

 

[suraci]

To answer the second part of the OP, "what makes the great's, Special?"
Listening, for sure.
I think great players have mastered basics, AND NEVER DROP BASICS, they just add to it.
I can't emphasize that enough. I have played with great players on rare occasions, and that is my take on the wonderful experience... the basic aspect of time keeping, pitch, balance of not too loud, too soft, ability to respond in the moment, etc etc. These are the most creative people ( within music ) in the world... just use your imagination... "what would an extremely creative bass player do?"
He would seldom give up his essential role as bass player- time keeping and hitting notes that make the chords resonate the best- usually the root or an alternative to the root that also resonates.

The next time you play with a band, or just with a chord player, observe that some notes you play resonate much better than others.
On a major triad the most resonant note ( leaving the previous and resolving chord out of the equation for a second aka leaving melodic idea out of consideration ) is the Root.

On a major seventh chord, it is again the Root.
Minor seventh chord... the Root.
One of the most flexible chords as far as alternative bass notes is the dominant 7th chord ( including upper structure- 9ths, 11ths, 13ths )
Listen to Scott La Faro with Bill Evans - a great example of a bass player playing alternative bass notes.
But those are still ( wonderful ) exceptions.
And a wonderful modern example of alternative highly resonant roots is Hadrien Feraud. I sounds like he composed music specifically designed for the purpose of playing alternative roots, esp on dominant harmonies. His album resonates so beautifully. With all his chops, melodic flights he still nails those roots and alternative roots.

Now the melodic aspects comes into the picture when you are moving from chord TO chord TO chord. That is one of the major places where melody shows up for bass lines- between two chords.

SO on one hand there is that melodic aspect- linear- between eg 3 chords
The other aspect is purely vertical , purely looking at a single chord without considering the previous chord or the succeeding chord, or resolution.
That aspect I prefer to call RESONANCE.
A bass note when hitting the most resonant note in a single chord aka VERTICAL aspect, sounds the best, as a pretty reliable rule ( always exceptions usually melodic exceptions )
In the vast majority of single chord cases, the ROOT is the most RESONANT sound.
That is not the end of the topic of bass playing, but it is an early stage that one ought to be aware of. AND this stage never exits a bass players life.
The melodic element ( often between more than one chord aka chord progression ) is a kind of conflicting ( not a bad conflict ) aspect. There are always choices in bass playing, some are more melodic than others, and some are more resonant than others. The best bass player are BOTH, resonant and melodic. Resonance means roots.

 

[caeman]

Ultimately, I think one is a good bassist if what you are playing fits the given music appropriately.

If you are a playing bluegrass, that means hitting the 1-5 like a metronome. If you are a Dream Theater bassist, it means being able to arpeggiate an A13-flat9-dim2 chord, then invert it.

 

[stratovani]

suraci - oddly enough, I do agree with a lot of what you say, but bear in mind that I can only speak for myself and my own bass playing. Presently I'm not in a band, but when I was I felt that in any given song - the vast majority of which were in 4/4 time, hence the term "common time" - I could come up with virtually any kind of bass line, provided they adhered to two things, namely that I always had to hit the root on the "one", and the line had to groove. So long as I followed this I was golden, and I served the song without any problems or cares. Sometimes this meant the lines were simple and repetitive, other times I could be more adventurous. It's all good! I'm sure there are times when I would have liked to be Jaco or Geddy, but we were playing original Contemporary Christian music, so there wasn't much call for Jaco-style playing.

Anyways, enough of my ramblings. I think you have an interesting take on bass playing, and I enjoyed reading about it. I can see where others might disagree with you, but that OK. A world where everybody agrees with you is a world where nobody learns anything!

 

[suraci]

Thank you.. Jaco was very very advanced as is a new star Hadrien. These monsters of bass never let go of the primary bass role. I have no clue why players think otherwise.
As a keyboard player, I have the liberty of avoiding the root and the fifth or any note really. But a bass player generally plays roots, and if not him, who?
There are roles going on here. The lowest instrument , the bass, naturally has gravitated to the low roots.
If a bass is soloing, that is an exception.
And that makes the point. soloing often avoids the role of holding roots, while being supportive, by definition means making the harmony clear and resonant.. and nothing does that as well as the root. Even look at the words- ROOT, FUNDAMENTAL, FOUNDATION, BASE, BASS , SUPPORTIVE they are all connected.
Someone has to yield to the soloist. There generally cannot be two or more soloists, can there. Same with bass... only one person has the role of low bass notes.
And low bass notes are roots. Sorry, it is my observation.