What to do when FOH is SO loud...

[bdplaid]

Also important to remember that what your hear and feel on stage is not 100% representative of the mix the audience is getting. If you have a choice between sounding good in the audience but less that stellar on stage, or perfect on stage but thin/weak out front what would you pick?

It's always nice to say those kinds of things, and in my younger days I went with this. But now having a LOT more experience, I realize that if it ain't happening for the players, then they can't make it happen for the audience.

Most importantly, the FOH is there for the band, not the other way around. ;-) It's the engineer's job to make it happen out front, despite any nonsense that band is creating onstage. I think we are all willing to compromise for the sake of the show, but how many stories do each of us have like mine?

And I'll add that I was relatively low in volume when I started. I had to pretty much triple my volume and add "clack" in order to get any sense of what I was playing. That's totally not my sound, nor the sound on our CD which were were promoting.

I've said before, one can usually tell onstage when the mix is good. There is a solid depth that has minimal interference with the clarity of the bass.

 

[bdplaid]

I was wondering why you didn't do that.

I recently made the decision to set my amps up so as to not interfere with the FOH, trying to make it as easy for them as possible. I set it and forgot about it. Also, I very often just let the FOH guys take a DI from my bass or pedalboard (depending on what I'm using, I don't always use the board) rather than off the amp. Big mistake.

 

[nutdog]

Just came out of an obnoxiously loud band situation. Probably the last hurrah for me. Earplugs helped. Made the mix clearer and more defined overall. I wished the actual mix sounded like it did with the earplugs in. Recommend the kind made for musicians.

 

[BassCliff]

Hi,

I don't know why the answer comes to me a couple of days late, but it always does... Guess I'm a slow learner.

What I should have done was reach back to the XLR DI out and change the switch to "Post," and turn down the low end. Then I could have controlled the low end in the FOH from the stage, as the moron out front wasn't actually doing anything.

Doh!

Oh, I don't know. As tempting as this is I don't think you want to hork off the sound guy, especially a BAD sound guy. Maybe he would've noticed, maybe not. But this is a scenario for "the battle of the EQs". Probably not a good thing. Plus, you can't do anything about the kick drum. If you find yourself in this situation again and try to EQ from the stage, be sure to let us know how it turns out.

Just my thoughts. Your mileage may vary. I'm glad I rarely deal with bad soundguys.


Thank you for your indulgence,

BassCliff

 

[buldog5151bass]

Hi,



Oh, I don't know. As tempting as this is I don't think you want to hork off the sound guy, especially a BAD sound guy. Maybe he would've noticed, maybe not. But this is a scenario for "the battle of the EQs". Probably not a good thing. Plus, you can't do anything about the kick drum. If you find yourself in this situation again and try to EQ from the stage, be sure to let us know how it turns out.

Just my thoughts. Your mileage may vary. I'm glad I rarely deal with bad soundguys.


Thank you for your indulgence,

BassCliff

Agreed. If the sound person notices, all he/she is going to do is turn you down in the FOH, for that and for any other gig you ever do with them. Don't forget, sometimes they can hear something from where they are that you cannot hear from the stage - that's why they are where they are, and you are where you are.

 

[Hurricane Jimmie]

We played this outdoor lake/marina gig with a big sound system... subs cranked so loud that you could hear them 3 states away... the sound team had their own volume philosophy.
I turned my amp off since I could not only hear myself.... but also feel every note through my feet.

 

[pigpen1]

It's always nice to say those kinds of things, and in my younger days I went with this. But now having a LOT more experience, I realize that if it ain't happening for the players, then they can't make it happen for the audience.

Most importantly, the FOH is there for the band, not the other way around. ;-) It's the engineer's job to make it happen out front, despite any nonsense that band is creating onstage. I think we are all willing to compromise for the sake of the show, but how many stories do each of us have like mine?

And I'll add that I was relatively low in volume when I started. I had to pretty much triple my volume and add "clack" in order to get any sense of what I was playing. That's totally not my sound, nor the sound on our CD which were were promoting.

I've said before, one can usually tell onstage when the mix is good. There is a solid depth that has minimal interference with the clarity of the bass.

I respectfully disagree, to a point. I've mixed in venues, where if I were to make the amount of low end acceptable on stage (unless I'm really underestimating what you were dealing with) then the mix would sound super week and hollow. You can't always change subwoofer placement/alignment. Subs right under a stage, you can't just neuter the kick/bass if you expect dance floors to be packed, if its that kind of gig. Or at least I wouldn't unless the band or venue operator asked me to. Just talk to the sound guy directly.

I don't really understand this part of your reply "Most importantly, the FOH is there for the band, not the other way around"
To me the FOH guy is there to provide a mix for the audience that represents the artist the way they want the crowd to hear them, if tht makes sense. Your monitor guy is for the band, if you aren't doing monitors foh.

Mixed a lot of festival style shows where I never even interacted with the bands. Someone else mic'd the stage, I got my line checks during monitor time and kept it unassuming and generic minus specific instructions.

 

[Korladis]

Not sure where to post this so here it is...

What do you do to get a decent bass sound onstage when the FOH is so loud you can't hear anything else? I kept turning up and adding midrange to get some sort of definition out of the amp, but nothing seemed to work. Had the amp up louder than it's ever been. Bass coming out of FOH was super low and loud.

I could make out the other instruments because they operated in a higher frequency range, although everything was definitely overcome by the low end from the FOH. But the bass was just lost.
The room was a big one, two-story affair with the acoustics of a gymnasium.

I've done a lot of gigs similar to this, but this might have been the worst.

Cut lows wherever possible and boost midrange.

 

[bdplaid]

Maybe he would've noticed, maybe not.

I never once saw him behind the board, so I think he could have soiled himself and not noticed.

If you find yourself in this situation again and try to EQ from the stage, be sure to let us know how it turns out.

Oh, I will! And I'm well aware of the crapstorm that can create (having done it in the past), but this situation was really extraordinary. Imagine, if you will, a full-on SVT behind you, only way too loud and muddy. It sounded kinda like that. I couldn't hear the kick, I had to watch it, as others have suggested.

I'm glad I rarely deal with bad soundguys.

How lucky you are. I've dealt with the spectrum of them. The good ones, OMG, you can tell in an instant.

If the sound person notices, all he/she is going to do is turn you down in the FOH, for that and for any other gig you ever do with them. Don't forget, sometimes they can hear something from where they are that you cannot hear from the stage - that's why they are where they are, and you are where you are.

mmmm... no. No pro soundman should play those games. And I'm happy to give them a lot of leeway, but when it interferes with what's happening onstage, that's not good.

To me the FOH guy is there to provide a mix for the audience that represents the artist the way they want the crowd to hear them, if tht makes sense.

That's exactly what I'm talking about - he's there for the band - to be sure that the band sounds the way it's supposed to sound, not the way HE thinks it ought to sound. In my case, it was anything but.

Really, we should have had our own guy there, but we didn't. Our bad.

I respectfully disagree,

Or disrespectfully agree... ;-)

unless I'm really underestimating what you were dealing with

Respectfully, I think you are. See above reference to SVT headphone.

I think a lot of guys just give too much power to the soundman. Yeah, it's true they can really foul you up if they want to, but isn't that a reflection on them?

And I'll never forget the argument I got into with one who refused to use the EQ knobs because it created "distortion." Not audible distortion mind you, he just knew it was there because "it's measureable on a scope." But that's for another thread...

 

[buldog5151bass]

No good pro soundman will. But there are always idiots out there with jobs.

 

[pcake]

I've done gigs with my foot against the bass drum peg when the sound sucked. It was the only way to stay in sync with the drummer.

Hi,



There have been times when I had to stand next to the drummer in such a way that I could visually watch the kick drum pedal.

Thank you for your indulgence,

BassCliff

with one band, i used to watch the drummer's sticks for timing. worked every time.

 

[LT131]

Don't send the super lows out to FOH. My signal goes through a HPF first.

 

[pigpen1]

I never once saw him behind the board, so I think he could have soiled himself and not noticed.



Oh, I will! And I'm well aware of the crapstorm that can create (having done it in the past), but this situation was really extraordinary. Imagine, if you will, a full-on SVT behind you, only way too loud and muddy. It sounded kinda like that. I couldn't hear the kick, I had to watch it, as others have suggested.



How lucky you are. I've dealt with the spectrum of them. The good ones, OMG, you can tell in an instant.



mmmm... no. No pro soundman should play those games. And I'm happy to give them a lot of leeway, but when it interferes with what's happening onstage, that's not good.



That's exactly what I'm talking about - he's there for the band - to be sure that the band sounds the way it's supposed to sound, not the way HE thinks it ought to sound. In my case, it was anything but.

Really, we should have had our own guy there, but we didn't. Our bad.



Or disrespectfully agree... ;-)



Respectfully, I think you are. See above reference to SVT headphone.

I think a lot of guys just give too much power to the soundman. Yeah, it's true they can really foul you up if they want to, but isn't that a reflection on them?

And I'll never forget the argument I got into with one who refused to use the EQ knobs because it created "distortion." Not audible distortion mind you, he just knew it was there because "it's measureable on a scope." But that's for another thread...

I think I actually agree with most of what you are saying, I guess the sticking point would be the subjectivity around "the way its supposed to sound". It's subjective to a point. To me a better way to put it would be making it sound the way the band prefers it. I never had a problem giving a band what they wanted, within reason. Many times one band member or the other would ask me to bury someones backups, etc in the mix.

You shouldn't have the much mud on stage, unless it is an alignment issue. Mixed in a club for years where the stage was in a corner with 4 2x18 boxes under the stage right where vocal mics were and line arrays L/R right inline with same vocal mics. Pain in the ass. FOH left was hotspot for sub frequencies because it was against a wall, and foh right had nothing relatively.

I always knew that a bad mix was on me, and my own ego wouldn't allow me to tank something on purpose. Also, I knew walking in to a gig, looking at the pa configuration, that there were some issues that could not be overcome. Also, I would hear 30 seconds of some of the guitar bass and drum sounds coming from bands during sound check and know there was no hope for a great sound.

As far as Eq knobs, they are there for a reason....

 

[bdplaid]

I guess the sticking point would be the subjectivity around "the way its supposed to sound". It's subjective to a point. To me a better way to put it would be making it sound the way the band prefers it.

Well, if you're mixing the Beatles, you want them to sound like The Beatles, right? So whether or not one calls that subjective or objective, the FOH engineer has the responsibility to achieve that. That's what I'm talking about. I don't want my band to be "produced" in a live gig by a guy not familiar with our stuff. Just give me a solid mix. One guy started putting reverb and delay on the guitars that wasn't supposed to be there, and really pissed the guitarists. Honestly, who has the nerve?

I never had a problem giving a band what they wanted, within reason.

"within reason" give me problems. Back when I was doing sound, I gave them whatever they wanted that I could pull off. Short of blowing up the system. if that's what you meant...

Many times one band member or the other would ask me to bury someones backups, etc in the mix.

That's a whole 'nother thing. But if I got a heads-up that someone wasn't the greatest singer, that's fair, and tells me that I might want to process it to sound better.

But really, in my case I'm talking about a situation that involves too much low end coming back onstage, and in the original post I was just asking how guys dealt with it. The consensus is pretty much what I did and know, although had I to do it again I'd have made the DI "post" and tapered off some low end that way. The sound guy was so oblivious he'd have never known.

 

[craigie]

I never had a problem giving a band what they wanted, within reason. Many times one band member or the other would ask me to bury someones backups, etc in the mix.

Also, I would hear 30 seconds of some of the guitar bass and drum sounds coming from bands during sound check and know there was no hope...

Strange, I seem to have made my comments part of your Quote somehow:
My response
Lololol on the 30 seconds of no hope.

Regarding burying backups, wasn’t that one of the reasons they re-recorded the last waltz? Robbie Robertson's mic was on.

 

[bdplaid]

Regarding burying backups, wasn’t that one of the reasons they re-recorded the last waltz? Robbie Robertson's mic was on.

Think Linda McCartney.

 

[pigpen1]

Well, if you're mixing the Beatles, you want them to sound like The Beatles, right? So whether or not one calls that subjective or objective, the FOH engineer has the responsibility to achieve that. That's what I'm talking about. I don't want my band to be "produced" in a live gig by a guy not familiar with our stuff. Just give me a solid mix. One guy started putting reverb and delay on the guitars that wasn't supposed to be there, and really pissed the guitarists. Honestly, who has the nerve?



"within reason" give me problems. Back when I was doing sound, I gave them whatever they wanted that I could pull off. Short of blowing up the system. if that's what you meant...



That's a whole 'nother thing. But if I got a heads-up that someone wasn't the greatest singer, that's fair, and tells me that I might want to process it to sound better.

But really, in my case I'm talking about a situation that involves too much low end coming back onstage, and in the original post I was just asking how guys dealt with it. The consensus is pretty much what I did and know, although had I to do it again I'd have made the DI "post" and tapered off some low end that way. The sound guy was so oblivious he'd have never known.

Agreed. I'm not going to dammage gear for anyone. That is what I mean within reason. Of course if limiters and such are set properly this shold not be a problem.

When I didn't know the band well, I just gave them vanilla mixes. This is why its good to talk with acts ahead of time though right? Also, performers shouldn't be afraid to talk about these things with soundguys. I've had lots of these conversations with players and it helps both parties. Some of it revoled about how to get a better guitar sound, bass sound etc. Most of it centered around getting people to be flexible and understand that bedroom tone is not always the best live. For guitar players it was typically a "more mid and less gain thing," and no I don't need you to crank your clean channel louder than the dirty one.

I actually prefer most bass players send post eq, unless it is super radical, but if that is your sound then so be it, I guess.

 

[MrLenny1]

I've had it happen several times in the same room.
Really sucks.
Raising my cab up and cutting lows helped but it still
was a lousy sound.
P.S. Same room, different sound guy made a big difference.