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What woud be a true flat setting on a Elf ?
- Thread starter cbnutt
- Start date
By all rights it ought to be everything straight up. But maybe the "Trace Elliot mids" they are known for are "baked in"? I don't really know.
And good think it doesn't have a slider graphic eq - so we don't need any "elf on a shelf" jokes! hehe (Yeah, I'm evil sometimes!)
And good think it doesn't have a slider graphic eq - so we don't need any "elf on a shelf" jokes! hehe (Yeah, I'm evil sometimes!)
- Oct 22, 2015
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Here's a TB post to the link for the Elf EQ graphs.
(disclaimer: I play an Elf and really like mine)
(disclaimer: I play an Elf and really like mine)
By all rights it ought to be everything straight up. But maybe the "Trace Elliot mids" they are known for are "baked in"? I don't really know.
And good think it doesn't have a slider graphic eq - so we don't need any "elf on a shelf" jokes! hehe (Yeah, I'm evil sometimes!)
I remember somebody posted a plot of the frequency response (I think in the ELF thread) with the controls at 12 o'clock, and it immediately became apparent that the baked in tone was a mild version of the classic Trace Elliot pre-shape.
It was something like +3dB @ 50Hz / -3dB @ 400Hz / +3dB @ 5kHz
If you wanted to dial in the classic Trace Elliot pre-shape (ie as above, but with the values pushed from 3dB, to 6dB) you had to set the controls to something like :
Bass @ 3 o'clock
Mid @ 9 o'clock
Treble @ 3 o'clock
So, in order to get a "flat" response you had to set the controls to :
Bass @ 9 o'clock
Mid @ 3 o'clock
Treble @ 9 o'clock
That's from memory (I don't own an ELF), but if you search for my posts in that ELF thread, you'll probably find where that got figured out, and the data that was originally posted - I'm afraid I can't remember if @fredfrompeavey chipped in to clear things up.
A lot of people make that assumption about their amp, but it's a poor assumption - rarely does a bass amp with the knobs at noon have a flat response.
Sigh. Of course. But I mean, wth? I guess they'd claim they're "tuned" to "their" sound. But yeah, that stinks.
Yes unless otherwise stated by designer/Company 12 O'clock is their prefered voice or with some Company's 'Showroom' Voice
Some of better Manufacturez will explain tone controls operation(not all equal] and offer guidance
Absolutely. I had one amp (a Kustom) in which they used audio taper potentiometers in the tone controls! So you had to set bass and treble to somewhere around 8:30-or-so to get a (relatively) flat response.
I eventually replaced the potentiometers with linear taper types to get flat response at noon.
Such an assumption would be legitimate only if the device is marketed as equalizer (pedal/processor), IMHO.
When I buy EQ pedal, I assume that it is flat with all controls at noon (except for HPF and LPF).
On the other hand, when I buy an amp/preamp, I assume it to have some kind of voicing or EQ curve...
My perception is most bassist don't like flat and tone stacks are often tuned by the designer to give a certain baked in sound. Keep in mind Fender tone knobs go from 0-10, and most amps with Fender tone stacks are nowhere near flat with the controls at the middle position. Also most amps with Fender style tone stacks are not capable of a mid boost; only a mid cut.
You can select a Fender tone stack from the following calculator. AFAIK the Treble-Mid-Bass version is what we usually mean by "Fender Tone Stack. Keep in mind that few bass amps are voiced exactly like a vintage Fender. The Orange AD200B Mk III is the closest I have played.
Here's another calculator in case the link goes dead:
Note that these calculators allow you to change component values. For fun, give it a try to see how it impacts the response curves and the way the controls respond to adjustment.
While the Ampeg SVT and V4 are fairly close to flat when the controls are set to 12:00, the Ampeg 810E is far from flat, so you still get a baked-in tone.
You can select a Fender tone stack from the following calculator. AFAIK the Treble-Mid-Bass version is what we usually mean by "Fender Tone Stack. Keep in mind that few bass amps are voiced exactly like a vintage Fender. The Orange AD200B Mk III is the closest I have played.
Yet Another Tonestack Calculator
Interactive tonestack (tone stack) calculator for guitar amps and pedals. Compare frequency response curves of Fender, Marshall, Vox, Hiwatt, and more while tweaking controls and component values in real time.
tonestack.yuriturov.com
Here's another calculator in case the link goes dead:
Note that these calculators allow you to change component values. For fun, give it a try to see how it impacts the response curves and the way the controls respond to adjustment.
While the Ampeg SVT and V4 are fairly close to flat when the controls are set to 12:00, the Ampeg 810E is far from flat, so you still get a baked-in tone.
The desire for “flat” has some logical basis - in the event you want to find out what a bass actually sounds like - if you can setup a neutral rig, you know what the bass itself sounds like. One of the challenges in buying a bass is that the store doesn’t have your rig - if it sounds good in the store, there’s no guarantee it’ll sound good through your rig.
I never actually run a rig without some eq - my pedalboard eq usually runs with a bit of mid scoop (most basses are a bit low mid heavy), but there’s nowhere near as much scoop as most amps. The point is I actually know where the various components of my sound come from. That may not be important to most players, but I build my own basses, and knowing more about what comes from the bass, and what comes from the rig is helpful.
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Thank you for the explanation, but I feel that I still don't really get it.
Unlike an acoustic instrument, wouldn't an electric one lack a "true sound", since its sound is dependent on the signal chain? (Unless it's unplugged and you have your chin resting on it... but even that isn't useful since that sound will never be experienced by an audience.) (And it's being EQed by the density of your own personal skull, etc. Would a different skull make it sound different?)
Sorry... I'm honestly not trying to difficult. I'd like to finally understand this thing.
Unlike an acoustic instrument, wouldn't an electric one lack a "true sound", since its sound is dependent on the signal chain? (Unless it's unplugged and you have your chin resting on it... but even that isn't useful since that sound will never be experienced by an audience.) (And it's being EQed by the density of your own personal skull, etc. Would a different skull make it sound different?)
Sorry... I'm honestly not trying to difficult. I'd like to finally understand this thing.
All instruments have a natural or native sound to them electrics are no different than acoustics except the fact that he can't really hear the sound acoustically. with an acoustic most folks try to get the same quality of sound out of the signal chain when amplified as it has acoustically. The same concept applies to electric basses, you really want to know what aspect of the sound is contributed by which component, otherwise you don't really have any control over your sound.
Electric instruments are intended to be amplified. The sound you get from resting your chin on an electric bass is not representative of, or tightly correlated with the electronic signal that is generated by the pickups. There are lots' of factors such as pickup placement, pickup design, and preamp design that have a big impact on the electronic signal the bass produces. This source signal is not dependent on external processing. It is somewhat dependent on loading, which is related to the input impedance the bass is plugged into. Passives basses are more susceptible to loading then active basses, and the signal will change a bit depending on the impedance of the device it is plugged into.
If you plug a bass into a transparent, full-range, flat-response system with suitably high input impedance, you will hear the truest possible representation of the bass's electronic voice. It's not 100% true because no system is 100% transparent, full-range, or flat-response. Also the bass's voice is not precisely defined if the bass has controls such as bass, treble, blend, etc. The voice of passive basses can even be effected by the bass's volume control(s).
Whether it's useful or desirable to hear the natural voice of your bass is another matter. For some people it is and for others it is not. I tend to prefer more of a transparent, full-range, flat-response type of sound. I personally dislike playing through something like an Ampeg SVT and 810, which is heavily voiced and filtered. But millions of people think nothing is better than a P bass with flats plugged into an SVT and 810.
If you don't understand, then my guess is you probably prefer a rig that is not transparent, full-range, flat-response. If this is the case, then stop worrying about it because you will never truly understand.
Let's be clear, there is also variation in the voice of an acoustic instrument. Change the strings, change the acoustic environment, change the direction the instrument is pointing, change the position in relation to the floor, ceiling and walls, change the way the instrument is played, etc.
I guess my preference is to use different combinations of heavily voiced basses and heavily voiced amps, to get a variety of sounds... but also to try to render "my truest voice" consistently in the face of different acoustic spaces and different "competing" instruments.
(Sorry I hijacked this thread, which was supposed to be about a type of amp that I happen to own, too: the mighty Elf!)
(Sorry I hijacked this thread, which was supposed to be about a type of amp that I happen to own, too: the mighty Elf!)
I tend to agree
The way I think about it is that the signal chain becomes part of the (electric) instrument. In a sense, the difference between one bass being played through two different-sounding amps, is similar to the difference between one guitar being strung with two selts of different-sounding strings..
