What would you do? (Ethical question)

[kcole4001]

and character is how you behave when no one is watching (or when you know you won't get caught).

Bingo!
Props for a paraphrase of Churchill.

I believe that we're all old (and mature) enough here to know the difference between right and wrong.

What we do with that knowledge shows what our character is made up of.

Personally I've had quite good experiences dealing with MF, and from the big firesale of Midnite Blue Rick 4003s last year, a lot of others were dealt with more than fairly.

I think in a big company like that it's more the attitude of the individual you deal with rather than the company's actual policies that determine how your experience develops and what kind of impression they make. They seem to have some leeway as to how strictly they apply their general policies quite often, and I'd think a lot of that depends on the attitude the customer shows them to begin with.

In my opinion they should pay for return shipping, and I'd be disappointed if I didn't get a store credit of some kind to show their appreciation, but I wouldn't ask for it.

 

[capnjim]

Keep it and pay for it, but for sure get at least 100$ off.

 

[Toastfuzz]

It's definitely not cut & dry, but for me personally, I don't buy the its-OK-to-screw-institutions-if-theyre-big-enough line of reasoning.

Ok guys sorry for being such a whining instigator, I realized I'm taking this too far.

The point I was trying to make, and this is my opinion, is that a large enough institution that allows these mistakes to slip through the cracks, should also have its own methods of checks to find the error, and I'd sit on the amp for some time awaiting a call from MF. I wouldn't immediately flip it, or play it or even open it, but I'd put the burden on them to find the mistake and rectify it.

So, say too many of these mistakes happen and MF starts bleeding cash, raising all their prices, customers stop buying due to mistakes such as this along with high prices, company eventually goes under and all the poor employees are jobless. This is entirely 100% the fault of poorly running the business, not the fault of customers not fixing their mistakes. Then other companies spring up that don't make the same mistakes, and hire the experienced employees or the old big company, the multiple small companies compete against each other (both for good employees AND for customers), so customers get good prices and employees get fair compensation. Thats how capitalism was envisioned to work.

So, long story short, thats why I'd sit on it and not go out of my way. Yes, if MF called me, and sent me a shipping box, and was willing to pick it up from my doorstep, I'd happily send it back. But I wouldn't lift a finger to initiate it.

 

[Toastfuzz]

My point though is that the "right thing" is simply limited to telling them they've made a mistake (that may also be a legal obligation - I'm not sure of that and don't have the time to research it right now). You are under no obligation - ethically or legally - to correct their mistake for them. You aren't obligated to pay for shipping or schlep the thing to FedEx. You are under no obligation to burn a vacation day to be home if they want to get it at 9am on a work day. Your obligation begins and ends with letting them know they messed up and giving them a reasonable opportunity to come and get it from you.

If a hypothetical seller is destitute and can't afford to pay to get their stuff back and you want to be a nice guy and feel good about yourself then sure go ahead and pay for return shipping but again here you aren't ethically required to.

Gaius, I deleted that post cuz I could tell I was getting internet-franatic again. Replaced it with a more thought out response, and turns out I'm right there with ya... our only disagreement is at which point our obligation lies. So, to each their own.

 

[Gaius46]

Ok guys sorry for being such a whining instigator, I realized I'm taking this too far.

The point I was trying to make, and this is my opinion, is that a large enough institution that allows these mistakes to slip through the cracks, should also have its own methods of checks to find the error, and I'd sit on the amp for some time awaiting a call from MF. I wouldn't immediately flip it, or play it or even open it, but I'd put the burden on them to find the mistake and rectify it.

So, say too many of these mistakes happen and MF starts bleeding cash, raising all their prices, customers stop buying due to mistakes such as this along with high prices, company eventually goes under and all the poor employees are jobless. This is entirely 100% the fault of poorly running the business, not the fault of customers not fixing their mistakes. Then other companies spring up that don't make the same mistakes, and hire the experienced employees or the old big company, the multiple small companies compete against each other (both for good employees AND for customers), so customers get good prices and employees get fair compensation. Thats how capitalism was envisioned to work.

So, long story short, thats why I'd sit on it and not go out of my way. Yes, if MF called me, and sent me a shipping box, and was willing to pick it up from my doorstep, I'd happily send it back. But I wouldn't lift a finger to initiate it.

The FTC puts the burden on you to tell them - whether that's a legal burden or them just saying "that's the right thing to do" isn't clear to me.

You aren't obligated to fix their mistakes. I believe that ethically - and perhaps legally - you are obligated to let them know they made a mistake.

 

[Gaius46]

Gaius, I deleted that post cuz I could tell I was getting internet-franatic again. Replaced it with a more thought out response, and turns out I'm right there with ya... our only disagreement is at which point our obligation lies. So, to each their own.

Yeah I noticed and deleted mine. We've made a bit of a mess of this thread now

 

[RoadRanger]

I worked at a website (that some of you have made purchases from...I PROMISE), and I can absolutely say, based on experience, that some poor bastard's head is going to absolutely roll once mgmt figures out who did this.......your honesty just might help someone keep their job. No joke.

Or they might never notice until you bring it to their attention by calling them and THEN some poor sod gets canned even though it wasn't his fault .

 

[groooooove]

Ok guys sorry for being such a whining instigator, I realized I'm taking this too far.

The point I was trying to make, and this is my opinion, is that a large enough institution that allows these mistakes to slip through the cracks, should also have its own methods of checks to find the error, and I'd sit on the amp for some time awaiting a call from MF. I wouldn't immediately flip it, or play it or even open it, but I'd put the burden on them to find the mistake and rectify it.

So, say too many of these mistakes happen and MF starts bleeding cash, raising all their prices, customers stop buying due to mistakes such as this along with high prices, company eventually goes under and all the poor employees are jobless. This is entirely 100% the fault of poorly running the business, not the fault of customers not fixing their mistakes. Then other companies spring up that don't make the same mistakes, and hire the experienced employees or the old big company, the multiple small companies compete against each other (both for good employees AND for customers), so customers get good prices and employees get fair compensation. Thats how capitalism was envisioned to work.

So, long story short, thats why I'd sit on it and not go out of my way. Yes, if MF called me, and sent me a shipping box, and was willing to pick it up from my doorstep, I'd happily send it back. But I wouldn't lift a finger to initiate it.

i give you props for your honesty.

i dont know if i'd send it back. they did make the mistake, and lets be honest- what a sweet mistake. i'd certainly feel weird about it and question what to do- but i dont know how easy it would be to give back a free amplifier.

 

[godofthunder59]

Return it. Is there really any question ?

 

[otherclef]

give it to a bass player that needs it....

 

[CraigTB]

Ok guys sorry for being such a whining instigator, I realized I'm taking this too far.

I'm glad you were in the mix with a minority opinion.

Just remember in my case at least, for all my moral old-man talk about character and doing what's right, I'm pretty sure if you caught me at the right time a couple of decades ago, I probably would've high-fived you with a hearty "right on! serves MF right!"

Or maybe not "right on" - I forget what we said in the late 80s...

 

[RoadRanger]

Hahahaha this happened to me once with golf club components from a major chain.. double sent an order... phoned them to send me an RA# to return the 2nd package... next day a third duplicate order showed up. Sent one package back.. kept two. Just because the major Kaos and confusion it caused from the first attempt at straightening things out. I fully expected to see another duplicate package show up. Pennies from heaven. YMMV.

Sounds like Karma wanted you to have a spare set for free - and you should never argue with Karma .

Speaking of which - how do all you all know that Karma doesn't want him to have a spare head? Very suspicious that he actually does want one, eh? OTOH very cool that he's willing to pay for it .

 

[RoadRanger]

This is utterly false. Legally you can keep anything shipped to you that you did not request. He ordered one amp, they sent 2. The company has zero recourse. That is the legal reality of this situation. Ethics are a different issue entirely, and should not be confused with legality.

My understanding of that law is that if they (or one of their designated representatives like a UPS guy) show up at your door asking for it back you DO have to give it to them.

 

[Toastfuzz]

Or maybe not "right on" - I forget what we said in the late 80s...

Haha I say "right on" now and get called out for it. I guess its not cool to say right now either. Luckily everyone in Pittsburgh talks their own brand of stupid so you can talk pretty much however you want.

 

[BigMacDaddy]

hmm it's also easy to say things like "its the right thing to do, return it" but would you really if you were in the OP's shoes?

I have been in this situation, and I did return it. It is the right thing to do. I understand that it is "legally a gift", but that doesn't make it right.

 

[baileyboy]

I'd return the item, unless it was burdensome to do so. If that be the case, the ethical thing to do is to contact them and tell them if they want to make the effort and pick it up they are welcome to do so. MF may decide it's not worth the effort , and in that case, your conscience is clean.

 

[DaveKirkpatrick]

I recently ordered an Ampeg PF-500 from Musiciansfriend. It showed up a few weeks ago. I love it and have been using it ever since.

Today, when I got home from work, I found a package at the front door... another PF-500.

After reviewing e-mails and my bank statement, I realized that this second PF-500 was sent by error. I was never charged for it. Also, Musiciansfriend doesn't even seem to realize they sent it.

They made a mistake, and I now have two PF-500s. One was paid for, the other was completely free. Chances are, they won't realize this error unless I bring it to their attention.

The ethical part of me says "this was a mistake. I shouldn't rip off a company that has never done me wrong. I should call them, inform them of the error, and return it".

The second half of me says "this is not my problem. The shipping/receiving department did not do their job. Someone at Musiciansfriend screwed up, and it is not the customer's responsibility to right their wrong."

Thus, a question for all of you. What would you do? Would you return it, or would you keep it?

I look forward to reading your thoughts.

This happened to me as well. I received two Soundcraft M12 mixing boards a few years ago, but I was only charged for one. I returned it. I did have a brief moral dilemma about keeping it, but I returned it- because it was the right thing to do.
To me, situations like this boil down to a core question of "What kind of person do I want to be?"- even if nobody's looking/you can't get caught/there are no consequences.
edit*- Not trying to get on a high horse here- 'cause I've made plenty of poor choices over the years

 

[cchorney]

When I was younger I serve on a jury for a case that involved a person who received duplicate checks from the state. Rather then returning or destroying the duplicates, the person cashed the checks. Turns out, that's considered theft. A guilty verdict was returned by the jury.

 

[Joe Nerve]

I would think most people now would not even bring this up for discussion... they would just keep it and feel good about themselves.

I don't believe that's true. I think most people would return it. I've been in similar situations (many times), and I did the "right" thing. I got $30 worth of gas a few weeks ago, for $20- and I went back to give the guy the extra $10. I knew it would be coming out of his pocket, and in the end, I felt much better than had I kept it. In a situation like this I think most people would feel happier in the long run if they returned. Don't know the cost of the item, but even if it's $500+ , to me it's soo not worth it in the long run. If it's returned, it costs absolutely nothing, and the internal reward winds up being worth so much more. Knowing the "right" thing was done feels good, lasts, and winds up having additional benefits in the long run.

All that being said, I have to admit that I still go through this every time my mail guy leaves a package leaning against my door, without me signing for it. It pisses me off, and I really want to say I never received it, just so they don't do it any more. Ordered a $300 phone, I come home 9PM and the package is just leaning against my door. And I live in an apartment.

 

[edbass]

Ok guys sorry for being such a whining instigator, I realized I'm taking this too far.

The point I was trying to make, and this is my opinion, is that a large enough institution that allows these mistakes to slip through the cracks, should also have its own methods of checks to find the error, and I'd sit on the amp for some time awaiting a call from MF. I wouldn't immediately flip it, or play it or even open it, but I'd put the burden on them to find the mistake and rectify it.

So, say too many of these mistakes happen and MF starts bleeding cash, raising all their prices, customers stop buying due to mistakes such as this along with high prices, company eventually goes under and all the poor employees are jobless. This is entirely 100% the fault of poorly running the business, not the fault of customers not fixing their mistakes. Then other companies spring up that don't make the same mistakes, and hire the experienced employees or the old big company, the multiple small companies compete against each other (both for good employees AND for customers), so customers get good prices and employees get fair compensation. Thats how capitalism was envisioned to work.

So, long story short, thats why I'd sit on it and not go out of my way. Yes, if MF called me, and sent me a shipping box, and was willing to pick it up from my doorstep, I'd happily send it back. But I wouldn't lift a finger to initiate it.

Hmmm... So if you got caught you would do the right thing, but you would have no problem keeping something that wasn't rightfully yours otherwise, correct?

As many have posted, it's more of a character or integrity matter than morality.
You can "sugar coat" your "I'd keep it" stance on this issue all you want, but as usual true character still shows through.
It doesn’t matter to others whether you actually believe that your actions are righteous; to persons of character, those who have integrity, that "keep it" stance is generally indicative of lack of same.

This “keep it” attitude reminds me of a reality show, either "Cops" or "Bait Car" that was on the tube a while back when I was waiting in a living room for a guy selling an amp to get home.

The popo had set up a bicycle on the sidewalk as bait and sure enough somebody hopped on and rode off. When the cops stopped him and asked if it was his bike, he said "No, but it was just sitting there" as a defense for his stealing it.
He meant it; he thought he was innocent of stealing the bike, couldn't believe he was being arrested and was getting completely frustrated that the cops apparently didn't understand the bike was "JUST SITTIN' THERE!!!"

Maybe he thought "karma" wanted him to have a new bike...

Even though I was of the opinion that the perp on TV was truly ignorant of his crime, in my mind THAT is prime example of no integrity and lack of character, and also a person I would rather not interact with.