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What would you think about....
- Thread starter Marlat
- Start date
stevetx19 said:i want to live in a society where people are allowed to do that. I also want to live in a society where there aren't ***hats who would.
+773
I take that back, I see now what I stated, "IMO, as it should be (up to the parent, not society)."
Well, youre free to disagree.
A parent has the right to teach their children what they will. That doesnt make it correct, but its still their right.
Sure, I wouldnt mind telling my grandchildren, either. But, thats family, and I think you know what I meant when I said "someone elses kids". Would you tell a strangers young ones that Santa isnt real?
It doesnt really. It comes from the presumption that a parent has the right to choose whether or not they want their children to grow up believing in santa.
1) No. That said, one cannot always avoid situations where a child might learn this fact, say from another child at school. But, it should never be the place of an adult, other than a parent, to tell a kid that Santa isnt real.
2) Yes. If it suits the parents wishes.
It doesn't matter because people continue believing whatever they want regardless of outside influence. In this case, a child could just reason that the person who made the sign didn't believe in Santa Claus, and therefore received no presents. The lack of Christmas presents led them to reason that Santa doesn't exist, while the child is justified in his/her faith by receiving presents once a year and therefore knows that Santa is real.
It's still up to the parents to decide when those presents are no longer coming from Santa, but from themselves.
I'm sure this all sounds like a contortion of logic, but I see this sort of reasoning all the time. Personally, I don't think children should be lied to because it creates scenarios where circular logic is needed to handle logical questions. Doublethink.
It's still up to the parents to decide when those presents are no longer coming from Santa, but from themselves.
I'm sure this all sounds like a contortion of logic, but I see this sort of reasoning all the time. Personally, I don't think children should be lied to because it creates scenarios where circular logic is needed to handle logical questions. Doublethink.
I believe this may be an oblique reference to religious advertisement.
And the point ... It's Latimour: he's stirring the poo.
Funky Ghost said:
I wouldn't agree with that last part. My baby sister of 5 years would be able to read that.
No I wasn't aware of that although i am aware of bill boards on buses in the UK a few years ago from atheists. This came from a discussion at lunch today at work about the seemingly odd inconsistency between why people would be upset about someone telling their kids something which is true but comfortable with someone perpetuating a lie to their kids.Mark - did you get this idea from a recent news report? There have been a few reports of some atheist billboards lately. I wont go into detail
I thought of starting a thread on it but figured it wouldn't end well...
Sent you a pm. I'm not sure posting the link here would keep this thread on topic
No child would take the billboard seriously without pics , cookies ,milk , hand-held devices ,
carrots....
carrots....
This is actually a pretty fascinating question to ponder. I don't think Latimour is being a troll at all.
All I can venture is that the hypothetical parents in question participated in the Santa Claus "game" when they were kids, so they see it as an institution rather than a lie.....
All I can venture is that the hypothetical parents in question participated in the Santa Claus "game" when they were kids, so they see it as an institution rather than a lie.....
yeah, and we seem to have gotten to the heart of this rather quickly. as a parent, i think one of the golden rules is - don't tell other people how to parent! so, i am with matticus on this one. as much as it seems inappropriate to watch people 'lie' to their kids about different things, i don't think we have much choice. certainly some parents abuse their parenting privilege more than others, but if the kid isn't being significantly harmed i can't see how one could do otherwise. of course, 'significant' is relative. and this thread has great potential to turn into a can of worms.
santa can fall into the religious category. and religion is something that people generally feel is solely up to the parents to set. i guess the equalizer is that kids grow up and enter society and start to confront the differences between what their parents told them and what other people think.
It actually has a lot to do with consciousness development and spiral dynamics as well. As humans develop and grow our state of awareness moves through various memes. These memes are traversed by ALL of us at different times in our lives, as we do not all develop at the same rate.
Belief in Santa Claus would probably fall under the purple meme:
PurpleSummary: Animistic-tribalistic magical-animistic Tribal order
Time of origin: 50,000 BC
Description: "Sacrifice to the ways of the elders and customs as one subsumed in group." This is the level of traditional cultures.
Spiral Dynamics - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
I disagree about Santa and religion being analogous as for that to be an apt analogy there would need to be a substantial body of people who genuinely believed in the existence of Santa or conversely it be generally accepted that religion was pure fiction, neither or which are the case.
However consider this there are small groups of people who believe for example that the world is flat would you have the same reaction to putting up "the world is spherical" bill boards despite the fact that it would prejudice that group of people from raising their kids to believe the world is flat?
and ftr, i believe in santa tho i am not a christian. i don't believe there is an elf living in the north pole that gives all the children of the world gifts in one nite. i believe 'santa' is a spirit of giving.
i also think that mystery is a very important component of human perception of the universe. i don't believe there is one factual reality and i don't see it as a detriment to a child to raise them to believe in more than meets the eye. i think its important for kids to see that our understanding of the world is not black & white.
i also think that mystery is a very important component of human perception of the universe. i don't believe there is one factual reality and i don't see it as a detriment to a child to raise them to believe in more than meets the eye. i think its important for kids to see that our understanding of the world is not black & white.
That begets the question, and you kind of touched on this with the santa=religious aspect...
Is telling your children about Santa Claus really a lie? Or is it carrying on with tradition?
Not to get into religion, but the analogy is apt, would an atheist telling his/her child that God does not exist be a lie? What about an atheist who never speaks of God to their child and allows the kid to develop their own understanding?
I would say both of which are the case!
Would you disagree that a substantial body of children, lets say, aged 7 and under genuinely believe in the existence of Santa?
And how many people do you know personally (maybe not quite as high a number as I do, depending on faith or expereince) believe that orthodox religion is a bunch of hooey?
I think the problem is that we, as adults, tend to see the world from our own developed perspective, and think that its prudent to instill a grown ups perspective on our children.
If you ask me, thats a large part of whats wrong with society today. We no longer allow children to act as children. We're ruining their imaginations and replacing them with real world expectations before they are old enough to understand why. Just look at the gang rape thread for some clear examples. What 11 year old girl should desire to have sex with multiple men? NONE! But theyre out there.
How about you stay away from religion as per the OT rules. Unless there is some doubt as to the non existence of Santa as per my earlier post I don't think there is any analogy. This thread could have been about unicorns or anything else where there is consensus as to it's fictional status. It's not about areas that are withi the realm of reasonable doubt.
"I do not agree with what you have to say, but I'll defend to the death your right to say it." - Voltaire
In other words, I may not agree with it but I'd rather you have the ability to say it than not.
