what's a "double stop"?

[thrash_jazz]

Originally posted by Ed Fuqua
I'm always going to opt for the "Euclidian" world of functional harmony. If a cat's not hearing the IV chord, it's not really of much use to start talking about ways to open up or "vague-ify" the sound. In my opinion anyway. Get the basics, then move on.

Which is precisely why I am asking . I have asked people before, but I've never met anyone who's been able to explain this sort of thing in terms of regular (or irregular ) theory...

 

[thrash_jazz]

Originally posted by Ed Fuqua
Ooo, sorry, tension and release. Kinda missed that one.
when I aproach playing free ****, it's with my vocabulary and my ear, so a lot of what informs my playing on tunes is going to inform my playing on free stuff. You have a lot of the same things to work with: sonority/dissonance, rhythmic similarity/disparity, timbre etc etc etc.
Dissonant sounds that move towards sonority are percieved as tension towards release. Likewise with rhythmic disparity moving towards rhythmic unity etc etc.
And depending on the ingenuity of the players and how well they listen, you can be sliding around with various levels of tension/release on all fronts.

Thanks Ed . So what you're saying is, there really are no other rules, beyond what basic theory and your ears can tell you?

Please ignore my last post, I hadn't seen your edit

 

[Phil Smith]

Originally posted by downstairs
what type of chord would a C, C#, and D make?

One you need to resolve very quickly.

 

[Bruce Lindfield]

Originally posted by thrash_jazz


Which is precisely why I am asking . I have asked people before, but I've never met anyone who's been able to explain this sort of thing in terms of regular (or irregular ) theory...

Well there are lots of books about this sort of thing -I would recommend "Form in Music", by Stewart Macpherson. I don't really play atonal music now, but I have done and have read a lot about it and
have CDs etc.

As Ed mentioned - atonality is usually linked with "serialism" in serious music. So, the functional harmony is abandoned and you need some system for composing. Schoenberg invented the 12 tone row - where you fix all notes in the chromatic scale and then you can only use the notes in that order - you are allowed inversions or things like that.

Olivier Messiaen took this a step further and used serialism in note lengths as well as just the pitches.

I must say that I don't know how you can make music out of this, but I did play for a while with a pianist/composer who embraced this sort of stuff - he was a great mathematician as well! He wrote me a short serial piece based on a 12 tone row, which he called "Bass Solo" as a sort of challenge, but it was very interesting!

 

[thrash_jazz]

Thank you Bruce!!!

I haven't actually heard very many jazz or classical pieces that are atonal in nature. As I mentioned, a lot of Metal bands use atonality to get that "creepy" feel. They generally write their songs by ear, but I was wondering if there were any advanced theory that could be applied.

I heard an atonal classical piece once that I really liked and I can't remember who did it for the life of me . All I remember is that it has "Spring" in the title somewhere, it was written in the 18th or 19th century, and that it was first performed in Paris to the general disdain of the audience.

A bit vague I know, but if anyone knows whose piece this is and what it's called, please let me know .

 

[Bruce Lindfield]

If you mean the "Rite of Spring" by Stravinsky, this is not really known as an atonal piece - definitely not a serial composition anyway - but rather for its innovative use of rhythm - the time signature change every bar towards the end!

It is a great work and it is weird in places, but it is based on simple modal peasant tunes and it the way that Stravinsky treats rhythm that is unique - he dos use complex and chromatic harmony, counterpoint etc. But I wouldn't characterise this piece as atonal.

Probably the earliest well-known piece that deserves this title is Schoenberg's "Pierrot Lunaire".

 

[thrash_jazz]

Thanks once more Bruce! I will be checking out Mr. Schoenberg as well!

Not atonal, eh? My music prof did say that it had some atonality to it... Now that I think about it, I believe he said "atonal-sounding", which is not the same thing.

Anyway, doesn't matter. As you say, a great work.

 

[JimK]

Originally posted by downstairs
what type of chord would a C, C#, and D make?

Why would these 3 notes = an "f'd up one"?
Why does it need to be resolved?

C'mon, guys...it's in the voicing.
Imagine a guitarist playing the C & D on his G & B strings while the bass plays a C#. Anything "f'd up" about that?
We used to play "My Old School"(the 'Jackets' tune, not the Dan's Pop Rock song)...there is a "G" chord w/ the bass playing a "G#". Believe me, if the chord ain't voiced 'right', mush will result.

How 'bout Charles Ives?
The last note of his 2nd Symphony has each member of the orchestra playing a different note.
That is, all 12 notes of our chromatic scale & in several octaves are used to sound this chord. Trainwreck or not?
Also, Ives' Concord Sonata...the pianist has to use his ELBOWS/forearms to play some of the "chords" & a special wood block is needed which holds down SIXTEEN NOTES, all at once!

How 'bout The Beatles?
That long, slow chromatic climb in "A Day In The Life"...a pretty intense sonic sample(IMO). The orchestral players were instructed to play a chromatic climb, beginning with their instrument's lowest note up to their instruments' highest note...& played 'freely'. So, there's probably lots of C-C#-D thingees happenin'. Maybe.

...anyway, I'm thru(for now).

Bruce-
Are you into Ives?