when someone asks you to try playing with a pick....

[xgator4u]

Wait wait, press, tour dates, gigs and no payment? At all?

I wouldn't do it. if the band is serious enough to tell me how to play, they should be serious enough to pay me for a gig.

YUP. That's how I see it.
If you are paying me well, then you are the boss.
In that scenario, I have the choice to do it your way, or leave.

When you are not paying me well, you better thank your stars that I am there at all, Do not even think about bossing me around for no pay.

And as mentioned, where will the demands stop ?

 

[hernameisrio]

Gator, to answer your last question, that remains to be seen. I am practicing with a pick right now and I surprised myself a little bit here. I am trying with all my might to be open-minded. But you know what?

I HATE IT! I HATE IT!!!! UUGH! :sob: It feels like a totally different instrument! I hate it so much, that I can't even concentrate on what I'm doing. It makes me not want to PLAY this instrument. It reminds me of everything I began to find limiting about guitar. That's how weird it feels to me. I feel like all I hear, is the stupid plinky sound of the pick hitting the strings...like I can't even hear the actual sound coming out of the amp anymore. I feel completely disconnected from my bass in a way that is very strange, like I can't control my tone. I really can't stand this. I don't think I lose speed or dexterity, necessarily...but the way I have to move in order to play the same way I'm used to, feels ridiculous to me. It feels stiff and unnatural. And muting? HOW DO I BASS

So I don't know. I'm gonna play one rehearsal with the stupid pick the way the guitarist suggested. And then at the end, I'm gonna ask which one sounds better. I won't play badly on purpose. But I think me playing bass with a pick is kinda like me trying to walk in high heels. It comes down to just, NOPE.

With all due respect to developing new technique and blah blah blah, no...just...no.

 

[Downunderwonder]

You're probably still doing it better than I could, the high heels too.

 

[hernameisrio]

God help me if I ever had to do both at once. THE WORLD WOULD END.

 

[soitainly]

In the end, I think having the ability to play with a pick would be a nice addition to your arsenal of bass abilities. Sure, you have a personal sound/style that you are shooting for that is based on fingers, but in the long musical life you have ahead of you, with more things that you can do, it actually opens up a lot of freedom.

As a long time guitarist, I don't struggle at all with pick technique on bass. It's just that I don't really like the sound of a pick on bass. I agree that with fingers it is easier to mute and get more articulation. Plus I just like the thump sound that you get with fingers. But I still see a few instances where a pick is the way to go. Sometimes that particular sound and attack is best for the music.

What I am saying is don't let your present lack of facility with a pick limit your musical bag of tricks. Even if you only need it occasionally, there will probably be a time when you are thankful you can play with a pick.

As far as being obstinate when someone tells you what to do, I have that in spades . I regret at times not just going with the flow. I agree that someone shouldn't just tell you how to play, without any real authority. But if you have any respect for that persons opinion, then you might just learn to like it. What harm can be done by it. Give it your best effort as you seem to be doing, I would give it more time. However, there is nothing wrong with telling the guy that in the end you reserve the right to play how you see fit.

 

[mellowinman]

I have just had it suggested to me that I play with a pick on certain songs.

My current thought is, "no."

That may change, but for now, that is my thought.

I am not against pick playing.

But I have never been good at it, and I've really tried before. I'm talking even on GUITAR. I am just all fingers.

 

[SquierJazz72]

Well at least you are being open and trying it, but if you really can't stand it and just can't adapt, so be it. Be upfront that it just doesn't work for you, and maybe see what else you can do EQ wise to get the sound they want(if you intend to stay with this project).

Some people are more natural with one way, and never feel comfortable with the other. Nothing to beat yourself up over(or be dictated to without compensation).

If it isn't a paying project(or at least, not yet) I think they should only be dictating so much.

And is it really a pick they want, or just a more pick like sound? There are other ways to achieve a similar sound if you just don't get on with using a pick.

As to muting, I handle it a couple ways. If I am not going overly fast with a pick, and don't need a full range motion, I sometimes keep the side of my hand in close to dampen strings I'm not picking. A modified palm mute, basically. Otherwise I do muting with a free finger on my fretting hand to lightly cover what I don't want ringing out or clashing.

 

[GlennW]

I started on bass and always used my fingers...tried a pick maybe three times for a total of less than five minutes.

Later I started trying to play the guitar and could not relate to the pick at all. The big thing was not being able to feel the string/s I was playing, so I played with my thumb (downstroke) and first finger (upstroke) for the most part. I got along ok. I think it took about five years before I got comfortable with a pick on the guitar, but I wasn't gung ho about learning in the beginning. It's much easier to stick with a lame technique that almost works...the instant gratification thing.

If you want to get better with a pick, just give it few minutes a day. Play one run/line over and over for about five minutes concentrating on technique and how it sounds. You'll get better.

 

[ShoeManiac]

Gator, to answer your last question, that remains to be seen. I am practicing with a pick right now and I surprised myself a little bit here. I am trying with all my might to be open-minded. But you know what?

I HATE IT! I HATE IT!!!! UUGH! :sob: It feels like a totally different instrument! I hate it so much, that I can't even concentrate on what I'm doing. It makes me not want to PLAY this instrument. It reminds me of everything I began to find limiting about guitar. That's how weird it feels to me. I feel like all I hear, is the stupid plinky sound of the pick hitting the strings...like I can't even hear the actual sound coming out of the amp anymore. I feel completely disconnected from my bass in a way that is very strange, like I can't control my tone. I really can't stand this. I don't think I lose speed or dexterity, necessarily...but the way I have to move in order to play the same way I'm used to, feels ridiculous to me. It feels stiff and unnatural. And muting? HOW DO I BASS

So I don't know. I'm gonna play one rehearsal with the stupid pick the way the guitarist suggested. And then at the end, I'm gonna ask which one sounds better. I won't play badly on purpose. But I think me playing bass with a pick is kinda like me trying to walk in high heels. It comes down to just, NOPE.

With all due respect to developing new technique and blah blah blah, no...just...no.

There can definitely be some culture shock when you make the move to the pick. It took me a while to really get it, and the results were far from instant. To that end, try not to get discouraged.

I get the whole "plinky" tone thing. I found that a different kind of EQ than what I used fingerstyle would help, as would the palm muting. With the EQ, I'd keep almost everything flat, but give a slight boost to the high mids. That combined with some palm muting (for me it's the edge of my palm) can actually give you a surprisingly beefy and defined tone. Check out some of Carol Kaye's work, because that sound was a hallmark of her studio work.

 

[hernameisrio]

But didn't Carol Kaye play with flats? I was thinking about it and I don't want to put flats on my Music Man, I feel like it'll totally choke the natural tone of that bass. If I end up springing for a MIM Fender Jazz, I'll probably put flats on it, but I don't want to make all these big changes just to accommodate one project. I think for now, I just have to keep practicing and get as close as I can to the tone this guy wants. I've just been really hitting a wall lately because my job has taken over so much of my time/mental energy in a way I was not expecting. So it's more disheartening than usual to feel like my technique might be holding me back because it suddenly feels like there are all these other obstacles in the way as well. Which totally has nothing to do with the topic of this thread....! But anyway...

 

[ShoeManiac]

IIRC, Carol was using flats. Most of her famous work was in the 60's, and roundwounds weren't widely available until 1966 or later, I would think.

That being said, I've been able to get a great muted picking sound with roundwounds. And it was done so out expediency, because I didn't want to have to change instruments just to accomodate my pick technique. In the studio was another story, and I would use a bass strung with flats for a specific kind of muted picking sound. But in a live and rehearsal setting I opted for my 2 main basses strung with roundwounds when I was using the pick.

 

[Aussie Player]

No.
At some point you have to be you.
Trying to fit someone elses mould is not for everyone.

 

[smeet]

Don't give up on using a pick, even if you don't do it with this band. You need a slightly different approach to make a picked bass sound good. Rolling off the passive tone or treble a bit can help. Flats definitely help too. In fact one of my favorite tones recently has been flats with a pick (I've hated doing it for 30 years, so if I can change my mind, you might too). I use Chromes, which are very bright flats. They won't choke the tone of your MM, but it will be different of course. I'm pretty sure that Bernard Edwards' wonderful tone with Chic was a Stingray with flats. The picked flat thing is nice because you get the solid fundamental of the flats, plus a pick click that has a lot of definition, but is less "pingy" and nasty than the roundwound click.

In addition to adjusting your eq settings, give your ears time to adjust. When I switch to pick from fingers, it sounds really bright and clicky. Then after a few minutes when I switch back to fingers, it sounds mushy and undefined in comparison. And remember, a lot of times what sounds too thin and clicky soloed is sometimes the perfect tone in the mix.

 

[Jack Butler]

No.
At some point you have to be you.
Trying to fit someone elses mould is not for everyone.

Plus as someone else mentioned, you can get a pretty bright sound with fingers with the right set-up/EQ. Instead of mandatory pick, maybe they should say what kind of sound they think would suit the music, and let you find the best way to get that sound. Iron Maiden has a bright, plenty of attack, in your face bass sound. Should Steve Harris be told to play with rounds and a pick?

 

[hernameisrio]

Well, today I took an impromptu survey of the other five bassists I work with (sometimes we all end up in the same corner of the store somehow and we have Bass Player Gatherings, it's pretty funny!) and they all dislike playing with picks too. They all play different styles with different gear and they all have different physiques/builds. So it was kinda interesting to see this common ground amongst such a melting pot of characteristics. It seems to be the sort of thing that we get asked to do by others, and then it either becomes comfortable or it remains this sort of grudging thing you do to keep your job in the band.

For me, even though I want to get better at it, not only did this bring up the fear that I have once again landed in a controlling band situation (and I hope I'm wrong, by the way, because I like the people and the songs)...but it also made me realize that I have a very kinetic, sensory relationship with my instrument which is changed dramatically when I am no longer using my hands so directly to play it. I tend to lock things in pretty quickly when it comes to muscle memory. Which I guess is good because when I start really cracking down with pick playing, it'll become easier pretty quickly. But it also sucks because I get very attached to how certain things feel and if they don't feel right, forget it!

Story time. I started skateboarding when I was about 14. I got this crappy old skool 80's-style board at a yard sale for $10 and taught myself how to skate. I'd rolled around on my cousin's board at age 6, so somehow it was kinda engrained in my subconscious by that point. I kinda got into doing tricks and things like that with regular street-style boards, but it never quite clicked...I always felt limited. Then about five years ago, I got into longboarding and from that, ended up falling hard for a Dogtown cruiser board...you know, the short ones with the big wheels and narrow trucks. It cost almost $250 new, but it was exactly what I'd always wanted in a skateboard. I didn't care that I couldn't really do tricks on it, because I could carve like a longboard but still have the speed and agility of a shorter street-style board. So to me, it felt right. I'm not even necessarily a better skater, but I certainly enjoy it more.

So now whenever I mess around on a street-style board, it just feels really lame to me. The wheels feel too hard and too small and useless. The trucks feel limiting in their turning radius. The deck feels cheap. I can still ollie and kickflip, but when it comes to the type of skateboarding I enjoy, I go for the Dogtown board or my longboard every time. If that sort of skate culture had been around when I was a teenager in the mid-90's, I would've skipped the traditional setups and gone straight for the "boutique" boards, money be damned!

At a certain point, if you're not feeling something, I kinda think there's only so much you can do to get good at it. I hadn't realized what I found so limiting about guitar, until I tried playing bass with a pick. And then I went, "Ah!" Because that's what it was. It was that weird little distance between the strings and my fingers. A piece of plastic striking metal...? What a strange concept when you think about it!

Until I worked my tail off to get into these two bands (and I hope they last!), I was really feeling like I was in a pretty bad slump with bass, honestly. It's been very upsetting for me to be so mentally drained from my job that I suddenly have trouble finding it in me to pick up my bass. I just have felt really broken for the past few months...like what is wrong with me that I don't even want to do something I love so much? :/

I'm still feeling like I've kinda hit a wall...I was able to change my schedule today at work and am hoping it helps. I'm also hoping that learning to play better with a pick, will be another incentive to try new things and keep it fresh for myself.

I guess this should've been divided into like, 4 different threads but whatever...!

 

[Robdrone]

I HATE IT! I HATE IT!!!! UUGH!

I feel completely disconnected from my bass in a way that is very strange, like I can't control my tone. I really can't stand this. I don't think I lose speed or dexterity, necessarily...but the way I have to move in order to play the same way I'm used to, feels ridiculous to me. It feels stiff and unnatural.

Oddly enough I know exactly how you feel, except I cant play without a pick. I can finger pick an acoustic guitar, but I just can't seem to get comfortable playing bass finger style. Luckily pick style fits the band I'm in pretty well, and after 20 years as a rhythm guitar player in metal bands I've got speed and stamina to spare.

Also Duff Mckagan was the first bass player I considered a hero, so I guess it kind of works out.

 

[Jeff Bonny]

YUP. That's how I see it.
If you are paying me well, then you are the boss.
In that scenario, I have the choice to do it your way, or leave.

When you are not paying me well, you better thank your stars that I am there at all, Do not even think about bossing me around for no pay.

When exactly do you expect to get offered to be "well paid" to play with a pick when you won't demonstrate willingness or ability to actually play with a pick? My first thought here was if you can play extremely well with a pick then what's the problem? This whole "I'm not getting paid so I call the shots" attitude is not really how it works if you're trying to move into better paying gigs. Demonstrating the ability to give the composer what he's hearing is.

I recently got asked not to use a pick for a thus far non-paying gig and I complied without argument. The leader knows what he wants to hear for the songs he wrote and I respect that. His last three bands have toured as support for arena acts and one even made a few bucks. Just because you're not getting paid right now doesn't mean it isn't a wise investment in the future to respect and serve the composer's vision of his music. The more versatile and easy to work with you are the more paying gigs you'll get.

 

[nojj]

Oddly enough I know exactly how you feel, except I cant play without a pick.

Same way here, playing without a pick wasn't a option for many years due to R hand damage.
These days I can fingerstyle after a fashion, but it's still way behind my picking.


One thing you may try is to use finger picks.

 

[xgator4u]

When exactly do you expect to get offered to be "well paid" to play with a pick when you won't demonstrate willingness or ability to actually play with a pick? My first thought here was if you can play extremely well with a pick then what's the problem? This whole "I'm not getting paid so I call the shots" attitude is not really how it works if you're trying to move into better paying gigs. Demonstrating the ability to give the composer what he's hearing is.

I recently got asked not to use a pick for a thus far non-paying gig and I complied without argument. The leader knows what he wants to hear for the songs he wrote and I respect that. His last three bands have toured as support for arena acts and one even made a few bucks. Just because you're not getting paid right now doesn't mean it isn't a wise investment in the future to respect and serve the composer's vision of his music. The more versatile and easy to work with you are the more paying gigs you'll get.

Well, I respectfully disagree. I play with both personally, depending on the attack "I" am looking for, relevant to the song.
I do indeed have the attitude that If I am a "hired"=paid gun, then YOU are the boss, and I can either do it YOUR way, or leave.
If I am an UN-paid volunteer, then YES I do call the shots when it comes to my parts, gear, wardrobe etc.

YUP, this is MY attitude.
Take it or leave it.
YMMV

 

[Jeff Bonny]

Well, I respectfully disagree. I play with both personally, depending on the attack "I" am looking for, relevant to the song.
I do indeed have the attitude that If I am a "hired"=paid gun, then YOU are the boss, and I can either do it YOUR way, or leave.
If I am an UN-paid volunteer, then YES I do call the shots when it comes to my parts, gear, wardrobe etc.

YUP, this is MY attitude.
Take it or leave it.
YMMV

Fair enough but if I were looking for a sub I wouldn't call anyone who just said what you did. My fundamental opinion is you're either serving the music as best you can or you're not and whether or not the gig pays has very little to do with that.

For all you guys who think getting paid makes a difference I'm wondering when you think you're going to get experience going with what the composer wants even when it's not your first inclination? Settling into something that doesn't feel natural and doing it quickly in a solidly musical way isn't something that you can do without a certain mindset....and the "I'M CALLING THE SHOTS" attitude ain't it.

I get it that there are bossy no talent leader/writers out there...I've played with more than one of them. But if you don't respect the composer enough to go with what he wants why are you wasting your time playing with him? Don't bitch about it, just walk away.