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Double Bass Where does "boxy" live?

Nate74

Nate74

Mar 3, 2007
789
78
DFW
#1
I did a small gig Friday night with my Eminence EUB, my AI Clarus and my Wizzy 10. First time at a gig with this particular rig, though I'd put it through its paces in my living room at what I thought was a pretty decent volume. Anyway, at the gig I noticed what I would call a fairly "boxy" sound. In particular in the range of B (A string, 2nd) to about Eb (A string, 6th). I messed with the EQ knobs but never tamed it.

I'm guessing I was pushing the cabinet a little harder than I had on my test run but not by much.

Any thoughts on how to eliminate/minimize this? I'm guessing if I'd had my Fishman ProEQ, I miight have been able to track it down but didn't think of it that night...
 
#4
I got to mess around a bit more today and it wasn't that tough to recreate the boxy sound. Sure enough, Studiodawg, right in the 450hz range. Strangely, even when I dropped that area -12dB, I could still get it to do it with an extra hard pluck in the sonic range I described before. Changing my plucking a bit cleaned it up but not sure I want to have to remember the 4 notes I have to pluck differently :(

Yeah, I'm tempted by the FDeck unit. I have a K&K, the Fishman and a Radial PZPre (that doubles for me on mandolin) so a fourth box might mean I need to sell one of the others :)
 
#5
Nate74 said:
I got to mess around a bit more today and it wasn't that tough to recreate the boxy sound. Sure enough, Studiodawg, right in the 450hz range. Strangely, even when I dropped that area -12dB, I could still get it to do it with an extra hard pluck in the sonic range I described before. Changing my plucking a bit cleaned it up but not sure I want to have to remember the 4 notes I have to pluck differently :(

Yeah, I'm tempted by the FDeck unit. I have a K&K, the Fishman and a Radial PZPre (that doubles for me on mandolin) so a fourth box might mean I need to sell one of the others :)
Click to expand...

Get an FDeck Pre and ditch the Fishman. You'll like Francis's Magic Box on the mandolin too. ;)
 
#6
It appears the FDeck doesn't have an EQ, just a HPF and buffer? I sort of like the idea of a 5 band EQ in the mix and the Fishman has a HPF and buffer as well. What's the advantage of the FDeck?
 
#7
Although it's possible to adjust the tone somewhat through amplification it's been my experience that it's better to start at the other end of the chain. I would consider a change in strings or approach. Granted, I have no experience with the Eminence but I can see it's limitations. Its design is a compromise between tone and portability. There's only so much that can be done through amplification.

That said, I never really liked the Fishman preamp. The FDeck unit has a rounder, purer tone that is more natural to my ears. With a good sound from the bass to start with adjusting the HPF might do the trick.
 
#8
Nate74 said:
It appears the FDeck doesn't have an EQ, just a HPF and buffer? I sort of like the idea of a 5 band EQ in the mix and the Fishman has a HPF and buffer as well. What's the advantage of the FDeck?
Click to expand...

It makes your instrument pickup sound good! :D

After installing a pickup, whether DB, mandolin, Dobro or guitar, I plug it into my FDeck Pre and Mesa Boogie Studio 22 to check it out. They always sound good because the FDeck and the Boogie are both hand built from quality components. The Fishman is built down to a price and sounds like it.

Listen to the two devices back to back - there's no comparison.
 
#9
Greg Clinkingbeard said:
Although it's possible to adjust the tone somewhat through amplification it's been my experience that it's better to start at the other end of the chain. I would consider a change in strings or approach. Granted, I have no experience with the Eminence but I can see it's limitations. Its design is a compromise between tone and portability. There's only so much that can be done through amplification.

That said, I never really liked the Fishman preamp. The FDeck unit has a rounder, purer tone that is more natural to my ears. With a good sound from the bass to start with adjusting the HPF might do the trick.
Click to expand...

Excellent points Greg, although the original issue existed without ANY preamp in the chain at all. The Fishman was just a thought on how to tame it a bit.

But you really do bring up an interesting thought so tonight I'll try to recreate the same phenomenon with my K&K equipped Shen into the same rig (Clarus/Wizzy 10). I know that when I've used my Eminence into my Shuttle 6.0/NEOX -112 rig, the issue doesn't exist but with that rig, but with that rig, I have to use one of my preamps since the input impedance of the Shuttle doesn't play well with the Realist.

I also think a friend of mine, who I throw some overflow work to on upright, has one of the FDeck units (not sure which series). I may be able to borrow his and have a whopper of a preamp shootout - 4 ways; FDeck, K&K XLR Pre, Radial PZ-Pre and the Fishman Pro EQ.

What I suspect will happen though is as Greg suggested and I'm just going to have to adjust my playing style a bit, which is far more practical but far less fun than doing preamp shootouts and acquiring even more gear :)
 
#10
Several years ago a veteran bassist and luthier in town (some may remember Bob Branstetter) gave me some excellent advice. He said that when amplifying a bass it was best to adjust the bass rather than the amp. Do what you can do to tune your bass, strings and setup BEFORE addressing amplification. Of course, the sound starts with an idea and moves through the chain ending at the ear of you and your audience.
Your speaker will only amplify the sound it gets from the player, bass, cable, amp.....
Remember the chain.
 
#11
My feeling is that if I can play unplugged on either my Shen or Eminence and not get this boxyness, the issue is further down the line in chain. I'll mess around tomorrow and swap in and out one piece at a time and see what I can figure out. I have a pretty decent PA too with 15's so I'd like to see if going direct into big boxes does the same thing...
 
#12
You might try the notch filter on the Clarus to lower those frequencies a bit. I've honestly never had to use it but that's what it's for. It's possibly the speaker though. When I had one I seem to remember it sounding good at lower volumes but it didn't like loud at all. What pickup are you using?
 
#14
The Fishman does a great job and bashing it is rather rude:rollno:. Regarding the boxiness issue, sometimes how the pickup is seated can have a profound effect on fullness vs. boxiness. I don't have an EUB, but can attest to this with Upton/K&K BassMax setup. On the Fishman, I would perform the "depth control adjustment" first and then EQ to taste and finally add some compression and readjust output gain. The "depth" adjustment is done by having all EQ controls flat except the bass EQ which should be set full up. Dial the "depth" knob clockwise until you hear the low end tighten up. This is the optimum "depth" setting. You can then decrease your bass EQ to taste and perform the other sound enhancements (EQ, compression, output gain)...good luck!
 
#15
Studiodawg said:
The Fishman does a great job and bashing it is rather rude:rollno:. Regarding the boxiness issue, sometimes how the pickup is seated can have a profound effect on fullness vs. boxiness. I don't have an EUB, but can attest to this with Upton/K&K BassMax setup. On the Fishman, I would perform the "depth control adjustment" first and then EQ to taste and finally add some compression and readjust output gain. The "depth" adjustment is done by having all EQ controls flat except the bass EQ which should be set full up. Dial the "depth" knob clockwise until you hear the low end tighten up. This is the optimum "depth" setting. You can then decrease your bass EQ to taste and perform the other sound enhancements (EQ, compression, output gain)...good luck!
Click to expand...

That's a good though on the pickup. I don't know that the bridge has been off the Eminence in years, but wouldn't hurt to check for sure. Thx.
 
#16
Studiodawg said:
The Fishman does a great job and bashing it is rather rude:rollno:. Regarding the boxiness issue, sometimes how the pickup is seated can have a profound effect on fullness vs. boxiness. I don't have an EUB, but can attest to this with Upton/K&K BassMax setup. On the Fishman, I would perform the "depth control adjustment" first and then EQ to taste and finally add some compression and readjust output gain. The "depth" adjustment is done by having all EQ controls flat except the bass EQ which should be set full up. Dial the "depth" knob clockwise until you hear the low end tighten up. This is the optimum "depth" setting. You can then decrease your bass EQ to taste and perform the other sound enhancements (EQ, compression, output gain)...good luck!
Click to expand...


The Fishman is a good preamp at its pricepoint. However, after improving the sound of my bass and technique I could hear it's limitations. Also, compared to something like the Headway its limitations are very clear. It has a two dimensional, electronic tone that IMO is not appropriate for an acoustic instrument. I have owned both the bass and acoustic versions. I kindly apologize for any offense and most sincerely beg your forgiveness.

Nate, my advice is to go straight into the Clarus. Granted, the EQ is somewhat limited but it's a clean, transparent amp.
 
#17
Greg Clinkingbeard said:
It has a two dimensional, electronic tone that IMO is not appropriate for an acoustic instrument.
Click to expand...

My thoughts exactly. I first bought the platinum as I thought it would be the perfect complement of the full circle. After experimenting with it quite a bit, I found this preamp was much more suited for EB than my DB. It's useful as part of a doubler rig, but doesn't render an enjoyable acoustic sound IMHO.
 
#18
Well, I'll get to have my preamp shoot-out pretty soon and will be able to really check out the differences. In the meanwhile, I've determined that the boxy sound I was getting in that particular range on my bass at my gig last Friday was a combination of things. I was able to get the same boxy-ness with the Eminence through my Genz rig (Shuttle 6.0/NEOX-112), but not as pronounced. It's possible with both rigs to almost completely eliminate it by dialing down the mids significantly, but the overall tone begins to sound like a fretless EB... so a tradeoff to fuss with there.

One other interesting thing on the Clarus, Channel 2 seemed to sound better than Channel 1, even with the same EQ settings and gain levels. I'm thinking maybe the EQ ranges are different between the two channels???
 
#20
klem.gote said:
Well, I'm still VERY confused by some of this. I thought that with an amp like the Clarus a pre amp was not necessary. But even if not necessary can it still help improve the sound, and how? Thanks!!
Click to expand...

While it's true from an impedance matching standpoint, you don't need a preamp with the Clarus, from a tone shaping perspective, the Fishman PRO Bass EQ has a 5 band EQ while the Clarus only has a 3 band. I originally referenced the Fishman solely as a way to try to tame a "boxy" sound I was getting from the 300-700Hz range.

Since that original comment, the thread has evolved a bit though.

I'm also now rethinking my Realist on the Eminence. I've read a few places where a Full Circle is used with good results. The boxyness also seems present on my Shen with a K&K Bass Max though... (scratches head)...
 

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