Which Darkglass stomp into VTBass? (B3K vs A. Omicron)

[EmaTheMirror]

I always run a VTBass deluxe (6 presets, no blend) as a pre in my signal chain. The programmable nature of the deluxe version allows me to cover a rather broad range of clean and driven tones, but I also have a Boss ODB3 (not as bad as the lore depicts it IMO, especially in front of a Tech21/amp and cutting some highs) and a Bass B. Muff (good for loose sludge, but the dry/wet blend leaves a lot to be desired) in my current pedalboard. I run them in front of the VTBass for different distortion flavours, if needs be.

I was thinking about swapping the ODB3 (or ditching the BBM) for a second-hand Darkglass pedal, and I'm currently split between what could be the wiser choice to best compliment the VTBass



The Alpha Omicron is probably the most versatile choice in itself and has plenty of girth and edge accordingly, but it can get into VTBass OD flavour and somehow overlap. Actually, I think the VTBass can get into Darkglass territory (or at least close, in its own way) when you crank the character and cut the post-drive mids.

The B3K (v.2) has a rather baked-in drive character that's got loads of definition and cuts through. Less versatile but I somehow think it's the one that gives a kind of modern drive the VTBass doesn't exactly nail, and in a more defined, plug-and-play way than the ODB3. I often hear about how the B3K goes along well with a Tech21 preamp. I did once demo a B3K into a VTBass DI in a Denmark St. store and was quite impressed.

The Microtubes X I guess is a versatile, surgical beast with para-drive capabilities, but needs more tweaking and is way more difficult to find second-hand around here.

I'd rule out the VMT for redundancy. Not that I think it's a lesser pedal, it's just that AFAIK it's as close as you can get to the VTBass/Ampeg attitude with a Darkglass product.

What's your take on it? Other brands are welcome.

 

[FaithNoMan]

I don't think the VMT is redundant. I couldn't ever get that metallic tone with the VT Bass that also sounded smooth. The VT imo shines better at being a warm defined preamp than dirt. I've never liked the drive of an SVT as much as other amps, tho.

If you like the B3K with it, get that. But I would say of those two, the Alpha Omicron. It's got a chunky drive that can get raunchy as well in the midrange. Something neither the B3K or VT bass can do very well at all.

 

[EmaTheMirror]

If you like the B3K with it, get that. But I would say of those two, the Alpha Omicron. It's got a chunky drive that can get raunchy as well in the midrange. Something neither the B3K or VT bass can do very well at all.

Yeah, the B3K sounds sleek, modern and defined soloed, but I wonder how it behaves in a mix that's not quintessential modern metal. The Grunt switch on the v.2 can help, IIRC. I think the VT Bass is a kind of drive that sounds best in context than soloed. With Character around 3 o'clock and mids cut, I can get a grinding, aggressive pick tone for my Albini-esque sounding band that works great yet retains a personal, "less conventional" character, so to speak.

 

[FaithNoMan]

Yeah, the B3K sounds sleek, modern and defined soloed, but I wonder how it behaves in a mix that's not quintessential modern metal. The Grunt switch on the v.2 can help, IIRC. I think the VT Bass is a kind of drive that works best in context than soloed. With Character around 3 o'clock and mids cut, I can get a grinding, aggressive pick tone for my Albini-esque sounding band that works great yet retains a personal, "less conventional" character, so to speak.

You should try a Rusty Box or a Greathammer for those Albini-esque band sounds. I find the SVT to be the antithesis of that sound. But I know the Tech21 pedal has a lot of range with it's high end. I just find it "smeary" for lack of a better word, esp at the far end of the character knob turned clockwise. Like, it's metallic but the bass sound is coming from deep within a tunnel.

Sitting the VT behind a more aggressive overdrive is great. I had all iterations of Darkglass in mostly their basic pedals, and my favorites are the Alpha Omicron/Omega and VMT.

I use other pedals to get my sound mostly now(right now it's a Kasleder Jellyfish sitting behind a Reiner Gasoline) but that aggressive drive into warmer defined preamp thing always rocks.

 

[EmaTheMirror]

I use other pedals to get my sound mostly now(right now it's a Kasleder Jellyfish sitting behind a Reiner Gasoline) but that aggressive drive into warmer defined preamp thing always rocks.

Just wondering: have you ever used the maligned Boss ODB3 into it? The VT Bass (and cut highs) can somehow tame its fizzy nature.

I might get an AO/B3K to have a better box for that use, keep the ODB3 for a tighter yet colder fuzz with a blend and volume control that's not as bad as EHX's and take the BBMuff out of the board.

 

[FaithNoMan]

Just wondering: have you ever used the maligned Boss ODB3 into it? The VT Bass (and cut highs) can somehow tame its fizzy nature.

I might get an AO/B3K to have a better box for that use, keep the ODB3 for a tighter yet colder fuzz with a blend and volume control that's not as bad as EHX's and take the BBMuff out of the board.

I haven’t tried that as even though I had both pedals I liked neither of them.

But like I said I got some good tones by stacking Darkglass into the VT Bass.

And I could see it taming the ODB-3.
There are elements of that pedal in the Alpha Omicron. I never liked the ODB-3(my first bass overdrive) but I liked the Alpha Omega a lot.

I heard the “grunt” in that pedal that my bass heroes had in their tone.

 

[EmaTheMirror]

I heard the “grunt” in that pedal that my bass heroes had in their tone.

Based on demos/speculation (I've never tried an AO myself, let alone into a T21) I had two thoughts, basically:

- The B3K seems to nail what I'd look for to compliment my VT right out of the box.

- Voicing-wise the AO has such a versatile sweep that can get into B3K territory and the same can't probably be said the other way around.

The third thought is a reminder that many bassists around here keep on saying that nowadays "everyone's after a DG tone" in a sort of cookie-cutter way. Honestly, I care about it up to a certain point if they're engineered to do the job well. And I still sound like myself no matter what.

 

[FaithNoMan]

Based on demos/speculation (I've never tried an AO myself, let alone into a T21) I had two thoughts, basically:

- The B3K seems to nail what I'd look for to compliment my VT right out of the box.

- Voicing-wise the AO has such a versatile sweep that can get into B3K territory and the same can't probably be said the other way around.

The third thought is a reminder that many bassists around here keep on saying that nowadays "everyone's after a DG tone" in a sort of cookie-cutter way. Honestly, I care about it up to a certain point if they're engineered to do the job well. And I still sound like myself no matter what.

What you said about the AO is true. But also if you really like the B3K with your VT then you may want to go that way. I'd trust my ears over all of TB.

A lot of people say that about DG because they see djent vids or they simply hear other people say it. Those people are safe to ignore.
Although they excel at those things, I have covered Sebastien Tellier(French pop singer) with the B3K and Sublime(dubby) with saturation from the VMT.
Nobody would ever know or guess I was using Darkglass from those clips.

"Listen to that metal tone"

Dropbox

www.dropbox.com

 

[mouthmw]

Your VT Bass Deluxe tames the OD-3 because it has a speaker simulation, it’s basically an amp/cab in a box so it low passes the fizzy high end. I use BDDI for that purpose (amp emulation when going direct or for FOH use).

I had VT Bass (v1 and v2) as well, and liked B3K (v1) into it, but did find it a bit too scooped for my liking. Never tried it again with BDDI, but I did try the latest B3K by itself and I liked it ok.

I think most dirt pedals sound very good going into Sansamp pedals. I’m currently loving JPTR Jive and Origin DCX Bass for overdrive needs. Sounds killer into BDDI.

 

[_Some Dude]

I use most of the ones mentioned in the OP (B3K, AO, VMT). I use the BDDI more than I use the VTDI, but I do use both. I've never tried the Microtube X, although I have the X setting on an Infinity.

My current pedalboard is a Kaamos, B3K and BDDI.

B3K - I use this when I want more distortion without becoming overpowering in the midrange. The highs cut well, so it sounds defined and pushes the distorted bass forward in the mix, but the mids are scooped out enough that it doesn't cause me problems in the mix by overpowering the guitars. I like the baked in sound and dial a B7K to sound identical to the B3K.

VMT - For me, this is the reverse B3K... it's all mids. I like this in a 3 piece where I have to punch in during a guitar solo and take up more space. With the gain low it's pretty cool on it's own as an always on preamp, and with the gain up it gets pretty woolly, plus a lot of sounds in between.

The B3K doesn't need to be as "modern" as most people think it is, and the VMT isn't as "Vintage" as the name would make you think. Both are far more flexible than a lot of demos demonstrate.

AO - This is my first DG pedal, and it's my least favourite, so my opinion is biased. I struggle to get it to sit in the mix the way I want, and it's the one that gets me the most complaints from other band members. Plenty of people love it, and in the right mix I'm sure it works great, so take my opinion with a grain of salt.

Interestingly, I like the distortion on the Kaamos, and it's based on the AO. I use this as a more wooly tone to as opposed to the B3K's more articulate sound.

There isn't a lot of overlap between the B3K and AO. They sound completely different and have different distortion characteristics. The B3K is more tight/buzzy, the AO is more loose/fuzzy.

IMO, the X is something you need to commit to. I think it works better as a preamp and not a distortion pedal, as I'm not sure that it's something that can be punched in/out without screwing with the mix significantly.

 

[Grahams Groove]

How are you typically running your VT when stacking gain pedals into it? And what is the desired end goal (heavy OD, distortion, all out insanity)?

I'm not playing djenty stuff - so not going for a modern metal tone. This may be helpful since I use a fairly bright, always on preamp for light OD. My lower drive/OD tone is a Rusty Box (not VT), and the AO is my favorite drive stacking into it when I want distortion > OD for a big, chunky, punchy sound. I've done the B3K into the Rusty Box, but that only worked for me with both set to OD. So I was effectively just getting a boosted, heavy overdrive in the end - not full on distortion.

I tried using the B3K like I do the AO (as a moderate distortion into the RB), but it just got a little to harsh in that 2kHz+ range. I felt like it was stacking too much of that notched scoop and upper mid/treble bite in similar areas. So I was really trying to tame that to keep it from being harsh or ice-picky. The AO, in comparison, seems to complement the RB qualities and they 'just worked' together.

TLDR - it really depends on what you're going for and how you're setting up the VT.

 

[mouthmw]

The B3K is more tight/buzzy, the AO is more loose/fuzzy.

This was my experience as well. I’d also add that AO can get a lot dirtier than B3K. At times I felt that B3K didn’t have quite enough gain, but that was before my dirt tastes changed (evolved?). Not sure how I’d feel today.

 

[burgerdj]

I went through a number of DG pedals searching for modern tones to use in a new cover band. I rely heavily on a Sansamp PBDD for the foundation of my tone. Honestly I struggled to find a DG pedal that played well with the Sansamp. On its own, the B3K is great. I ended up with a Lusithand Ground and Pound v2 and have been pleased.

 

[EmaTheMirror]

How are you typically running your VT when stacking gain pedals into it? And what is the desired end goal (heavy OD, distortion, all out insanity)?

I run my VT both clean, with a warm breakup or with a metallic drive/edge and add a layer of extra dirt on the high-end with the ODB3 if needs be or I think it adds to the tone.

Theoretically, my initial idea was to swap the ODB3 and add something that gives a precise high-end drive to the attack, be it for alt-rock, Dug-style tones or heavier uses, accordingly. As an extra layer, so to speak, without turning the VTBass (+ bass + chain of FXs) tone inside out.

I know that DG doesn't necessarily mean metal music (AFAIK Tony Levin used their gear too) and IMO people often tend to mistake tone with context, technique and actual parts: out of context, isolated bass tones recorded by, say, Simon Gallup could sound more akin to driven metal tones than Ellefson's, as a lame example.

 

[secondbestcody]

I’m actually in this same situation right now. VT Deluxe with a drive going into it. I’ve got a B3K and VMT, and I actually prefer the VMT over the B3K. It nails the drive the VT tries to get with the character knob.

I’ve been on a drive/distortion kick at the moment. I’ve been swapping out two drives on my board going into the VT and currently have the MBD 3 going into a Pork & Pickle.

I also really dig the new EAE Greathammer. But if you really want that DG tone, but less metallic, Lusithand Ground & Pound mk2.

 

[Grahams Groove]

I run my VT both clean, with a warm breakup or with a metallic drive/edge and add a layer of extra dirt on the high-end with the ODB3 if needs be or I think it adds to the tone.

Theoretically, my initial idea was to swap the ODB3 and add something that gives a precise high-end drive to the attack, be it for alt-rock, Dug-style tones or heavier uses, accordingly. As an extra layer, so to speak, without turning the VTBass (+ bass + chain of FXs) tone inside out.

In my humble opinion, the B3K is the way to go if you're not trying to push the VT into all out distortion territory. I like the B3K as a very dirty boost (what you're maybe describing?). I go mid boost on, tone ~12:00, and I use a fair bit of the clean blend to keep the highs from getting too brittle when it's pushing the already bright rusty box. If you're hitting the 'warm breakup' setting on your VT, that may be less of a concern anyway.

 

[EmaTheMirror]

Based on demos (and on a ToneX profile I sometimes use with my DAW), I've also been very impressed with Dug's DP-3X for its surgical bi-amping definition and attack, but I'd rule it out as I don't want to give up my VT baseline and its 6-preset ability, nor add another T21 preamp that would beg to run by itself.

Add pedalboard estate and costs to it and you get why I'd like to get that sort of tonal attitude without rebuilding my board from the ground up.

 

[EmaTheMirror]

Adding to my original query: is there a dramatic tonal difference between a V1 vs V2 B3K pedal? Would you be missing out a good amount of tonal options with a V1, or even worse, a different sounding pedal due to parts?

I just checked online and ATM most B3K on sale in the used market here are V1s, and with tempting price tags, for obvious reasons.

 

[_Some Dude]

Adding to my original query: is there a dramatic tonal difference between a V1 vs V2 B3K pedal? Would you be missing out a good amount of tonal options with a V1, or even worse, a different sounding pedal due to parts?

I just checked online and ATM most B3K on sale in the used market here are V1s, and with tempting price tags, for obvious reasons.

I've tested the B3K v1 (made in Finland, has full size components and Doug's name inside it), a different v1 (made in USA with surface mount technology), a B7K v1, a B7K Ultra....

... they all sound the same. Additional options (the B3K's tone knob, the B7K EQ, etc) add more tonal options, however they can all be dialled in for that original B3K sound.

 

[EmaTheMirror]

Update: I've kind of pulled the trigger and contacted a seller for a near mint Alpha Omicron.

Based on all comparisons I saw and on some Karnivool demos (not that I want/need to play like Jon, but I admire what's behind his tone), I kinda dig that growly yet precise and defined grunt and the grind in the upper mids towards the alpha spectrum. It sounds like a really versatile drive and the meater, fuller-sounding tone (compared to the B3K) can actually be beneficial in context. My ODB3 into a VT covers my fuzzier needs way better than a BBMuff does.
I know I'd go into buying remorse if I went for a B3K v.1 just to save around €30.

We'll see how it goes. Thanks for all your feedback.