Who doesn't read music?

[Richard Lindsey]

I only take personal attacks as personal attacks. You didn't say, "your definition is too narrow" you said I was narrow minded. That falls directly under personal attack, but I still addressed it dispassionately and intellectually (my whole demeanor in all of my statements about the definition of the word "musician").

Nope. Read better, please. I said the opinion was narrow-minded, by which I meant specifically *the product of a narrow approach to thinking about the topic.* To have called the definition narrow would not have been the same, because a narrow definition can be quite correct and can be the product of quite broad thinking about a subject. But I had no wish to cause personal offense, so to avoid misunderstanding, perhaps we can say "excessively and inaccurately narrow."

I'm not affronted either way (this isn't my first rodeo). I have stated my case. Nobody has refuted what I've said. They only say they don't agree with me.

Sigh. The reason no one has "refuted" what you've said is that refutation is generally not applicable to mere opinion. To factual statements, yes; to opinions, no. So the absence of refutation proves absolutely nothing. With opinions, disagreement is basically all we've got.

I love a good disagreement (only through a discussion can we come to a higher understanding). I think language matters (especially the accuracy thereof). I think knowledge matters.

Fine, but are you suggesting that those who disagree with you DON'T think those things matter?

I do find it odd how many people get really emotionally worked up about this conversation though.

Dude, nobody in this thread has been more vehemently attached to his/her opinion than you. I can't speak for anybody else, but I'm not emotional about this at all.

More and more personal attacks will follow (mark my words... always happens) until I'm either kicked off the forums or leave because of the unbridled hostility. Don't worry... it's coming. You won't have to deal with me too much longer. Then all of you can have that discussion of, "Remember when that narrow minded a-hole tried to accurately define musician?"

This is coming off as something of a persecution complex. Really, this "always happens"?

I find it odd that we try to define musician the same way politicians define pornography. It's a whole, "I can't tell you what it is, but I know it when I see it" situation. The difference is how many people get angry when their definition of musician is challenged. I'm trying to simplify this situation.

If your idea of simplifying the situation is to keep yelling over and over that your opinion of who is a musician is the only right one, period, end of sentence, end of paragraph ... then you might consider refining your strategy. It's not simplifying anything, and you just sound like you're more upset than anyone else.

 

[Richard Lindsey]

In any case, we're once again far afield from the original topic, so I apologize to DWBass for helping to derail things.

 

[DWBass]

Before the inception of written music or the theory of said music......what were those who played music called? What about those blind artists who play music at a high level such as Stevie Wonder, Ray Charles, Jose Feliciano, Ronnie Milsap, Raul Midon, Clarence Carter, etc.? Are they not musicians?

 

[DWBass]

In any case, we're once again far afield from the original topic, so I apologize to DWBass for helping to derail things.

It's all good. I get all the arguments but to me, if you can play music competently, you are a musician. You can also be educated musically but barely create or play with others. Is he/she still a musician? Is it just an educational thing? I've had no formal bass lessons but am a very competent bassist. Am I not a musician? Now there are different levels of musicianship...that I can agree with. But to tell a musician, who doesn't read music, that he/she is in fact, NOT a musician is wrong. I'll assume very few have that opinion.

 

[Durham52]

It's all good. I get all the arguments but to me, if you can play music competently, you are a musician. You can also be educated musically but barely create or play with others. Is he/she still a musician? Is it just an educational thing? I've had no formal bass lessons but am a very competent bassist. Am I not a musician? Now there are different levels of musicianship...that I can agree with. But to tell a musician, who doesn't read music, that he/she is in fact, NOT a musician is wrong. I'll assume very few have that opinion.

I think most people would hold the same opinion as you and far as dictionary definitions for the word musician go, most run as follows:-
Oxford, "a person who plays a musical instrument, or is musically talented"
Collins, "a person who plays or composes music, especially as a profession"
Merriam-Webster, "a composer, conductor, or performer of music"
MacMillan, "someone who performs or writes music"

I'm certainly not going to argue that Irving Berlin, Wes Montgomery, or Stevie Ray Vaughan, BB King, or Jerry Garcia weren't musicians. We can all have our personal feelings as to what qualifies as a musician, but they do not make it so, except I suppose, in our minds....

 

[Williethedummy]

Dues can be paid exclusively on an instrument to be proficient on an instrument, but not to be a musician. Nowhere in any of my statements did I even intimate "Forcibly consuming a formal course in music". If you cannot express your music without an instrument, you are not a musician. You do not know how music works. I learned many things in school. I learned many more things by seeking knowledge on my own.

Everybody's offence to my statements are always that knowledge and language aren't important to achieving the title. I reject all of those arguments. Doing something half-way does not entitle you to the full benefits. All of these arguments are the same ones I've heard for decades.

Instruments are cheap. Buying one doesn't make you a musician. Playing one doesn't make you a musician. you can be a really awesome guitar player and not be a musician. I see it all the time, when I try to discuss a passage of music and the player glazes over because they don't know what they just played... all they know is that they like it. That is NOT a musician.

 

[SteveCS]

Pino Palladino does not read music...at all. He has said that many times. Alex Lifeson has a couple instructional videos of him playing chords and said in it....” I don’t know what this is called....but this is the chord.” The thing is the thing regardless of the “ club” language away from the instrument. You either get it (music) or you don’t. Reading will help you understand what your ears can not grasp on their own I suppose if you are not a natural at it and that would be from the patterns of the written notes of its writer. You can see the written notes on a page and you are at the mercy of the person who wrote them on the page. You hope he is good at it or else you must rely (gulp) on your ears. All of the folks I’ve played with over the years while in original bands ( I only played drums at the time) matched a note to its position on a fretboard....groups of notes for chords the same way. No one wrote it on paper. Those guys were so fluent it wasn’t necessary. For you...a musician must meet certain criteria...you must read music. For me....I’d love to hear some of your stuff. I am only a hobby level guy...drums are my main instrument. Started playing bass in 2011 at age 45 after 41 years of drumming so I’m not even a real bass player. HOWEVER....I have a Youtube Page with a couple goofy tunes I wrote. I played all you hear. They have vocal tracks because of a silly story line. It’s for fun only. I’m not on your level of musician....no formal training. YouTube called Ledyard Pritchard and Pilot Mountain Band. There is no band. It’s just me....bass, drums, anything you hear. I’m not a singer either but ya gotta have a vocal track. I do this for entertainment ONLY because I have a real job. Also do it for free because I don’t believe anyone should pay for music. The latest one is “ Carolina Legend” by Ledyard Pritchard and the Pilot Mountain Band. All done on a Tascam DP-03....not even in a studio! LOL! Really hobby level! Another Odd ball thing with me.....always hated playing live. Been a drummer in bands on and off for 36 years and hated playing live. Mostly weekend work and I want to relax on weekends....not play in a bar or club! No more now. Quit all that. LOL! Having put that out there...Id love to see what you got! Teach me! I have an open mind! Got a YouTube channel or some cool stuff you created? I’d love to hear It!

I just checked out your stuff. Really enjoyed the music, the humour and some very nice drumming. Bravo!!

 

[Williethedummy]

Before the inception of written music or the theory of said music......what were those who played music called? What about those blind artists who play music at a high level such as Stevie Wonder, Ray Charles, Jose Feliciano, Ronnie Milsap, Raul Midon, Clarence Carter, etc.? Are they not musicians?

They have the ungodley ear. I never realized playing by ear is not universal. There are actually people who can not get it without reading. Why bother then? You can eventually learn to read. I did rather quickly....but abandoned it as it was useless for my needs and no one else did.

 

[Williethedummy]

I just checked out your stuff. Really enjoyed the music, the humour and some very nice drumming. Bravo!!

Thanks man. I’m not a serious player...just for fun. Since you were entertained I am happy. That’s my only goal. A laugh. That’s it! A laugh! My payment! I don’t sing either that’s why I specifically call it a vocal track so hopefully that adds to it! LOL!

 

[SteveCS]

Thanks man. I’m not a serious player...just for fun. Since you were entertained I am happy. That’s my only goal. A laugh. That’s it! A laugh! My payment! I don’t sing either that’s why I specifically call it a vocal track so hopefully that adds to it! LOL!

Mission accomplished. In fact, raised my mood for the rest of the day - it's still early morning here - so thank You, sir...

 

[Williethedummy]

If you can play something again...that is a musician. Keith Moon...not a musician. You said “ discuss a passage”, verbally. That has nothing to do with music. I can tell you in words...” Hey man, that rollercoasters third curve is insane!” That is not enough. If I wrote you the equations for it...still not enough. You have to actually ride it after reading what I wrote to fully get that feeling. If you just hopped on it....without a written description you will get that feeling with or without a label system. That’s just reality. Music....you either get it or you don’t. Reading is needed if your circumstance requires it...then you can learn it. Learning it however will not necessarily make you a “musician” in the sense where one “ creates”. I guess really getting down to it....if you play cover music you likely need to read. You seem pretty solid on this and it is only your opinion...however...a fellow reader who fits your description...what happens if he said “ Wow that’s a good musician” and he was talking about Eddie Van Halen or Irving Berlin or Pino Palladino...who can’t read a single note of music? That would contradict you. It does not really matter what any of us think anyway because everyone is going to keep on keeping on. I’d love to hear your tunes. Do you have a Youtube Page or something to check out? Thing I like most....new music I’ve never heard before that someone wrote. The stuff on the radio....not into. Always like checking out new bands. What is your YouTube page name? Help a brother out. Need to hear some new tunes! What is your YouTube page called?

 

[Blaze Barlow]

Read music....?....that never occurred to me..I thought you were just suppose to listen to it..

 

[Williethedummy]

Mission accomplished. In fact, raised my mood for the rest of the day - it's still early morning here - so thank You, sir...

HAHAHAHAHAHA! Some person who buys and instrument, learns to play a couple of chords, learns nothing about music, and calls themselves a musician is doing the disservice and disrespect. I don't care how good of a player or maker of songs. I'm saying you have to put in your dues and EARN the title of "musician".

You learn about music music by DOING. You may not “get it” by playing or reading or both. That “ get it” thing....elusive. Rare! It’s EAR FIRST, then if you need it because you can’t process pure sound...put it on paper! Whatever works for whoever! I have no clue as to when I hear a tune if any of the players could read or not. The thing I use for them are my ears. Music is Intuitive by nature as it’s a form of human expression. Somewhere along the way right and wrong rules came into play. A quality issue. The only thing anyone can agree on:”are you in tune with the others.” and “ are you in TIME?” Thats it. Timing....now this is the biggie here. Finding folks who can physically control their instrument, groove....swing....not so easy. As for opinion....you say you are not a musician if you can’t read...well one can say you are not a musician if you don’t write your own stuff....with a vocal track to boot. I don’t say that, but one could. I’d love to hear a couple of your tunes because now you have got my interest! What is your YouTube Channel called? I love new music I never heard before! What’s your YouTube Channel to check out? I’m so done with radio. What is your channel name or band name?