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Why am I not loud?
- Thread starter pipedreams
- Start date
if i am completely wrong with this statement, i'm sure one of the wiser posters can correct me.
in my experience, the eq can be very, very dangerous.
when playing at "bedroom" levels, or even just quieter than practice levels, the eq can boost your lows and make it sound rich and thick. when you start cranking your master volume, your amp becomes taxed by pushing the extra power on the low end.
my solution (not sure if it's good or not so please forgive me if i'm wrong) is to mainly use the eq to cut unwanted frequencies, and boost master volume. that way i have a better idea of how hard i'm really pushing the amp.
all i know is my tone/clarity and volume seemed to improve when i stopped trying to over boost the lows and instead took out the "harsh" highs i wasn't so fond of.
in my experience, the eq can be very, very dangerous.
when playing at "bedroom" levels, or even just quieter than practice levels, the eq can boost your lows and make it sound rich and thick. when you start cranking your master volume, your amp becomes taxed by pushing the extra power on the low end.
my solution (not sure if it's good or not so please forgive me if i'm wrong) is to mainly use the eq to cut unwanted frequencies, and boost master volume. that way i have a better idea of how hard i'm really pushing the amp.
all i know is my tone/clarity and volume seemed to improve when i stopped trying to over boost the lows and instead took out the "harsh" highs i wasn't so fond of.
One final note, running with what JLP said... What sounds good on its own may not work with a band. What sounds great with a band might sound terribly bad on its own as is the case with my band. I have my own place in the sound, but it sounds like absolute crap on the few parts that are bass on its own.
DEFEAT THE LIMITER!
It was mentioned once already on this thread, and has come up often on this site regarding the 4-pro. It's set at a factory level that covers their butts, but it WAY too low for practical usage, and to the get the most out of the amp.
Now, I agree with everything that's being said about better speakers, but I just wanted to go back to the limiter, 'cause it's given the head a bad rap. Almost always, when someone talks about the 4pro being weaker than expected, they have the limiter on.
I used it for years, before I understood that I would know with my ears if I was pushing the speakers too hard, and didn't need the limiter to squelch my sound. The 4pro opens up immensely once you defeat the limiter.
It was mentioned once already on this thread, and has come up often on this site regarding the 4-pro. It's set at a factory level that covers their butts, but it WAY too low for practical usage, and to the get the most out of the amp.
Now, I agree with everything that's being said about better speakers, but I just wanted to go back to the limiter, 'cause it's given the head a bad rap. Almost always, when someone talks about the 4pro being weaker than expected, they have the limiter on.
I used it for years, before I understood that I would know with my ears if I was pushing the speakers too hard, and didn't need the limiter to squelch my sound. The 4pro opens up immensely once you defeat the limiter.
southshoreconor: are you talking abou this?
Invalid Link Removed
because thats the pedal that i have
Invalid Link Removed
because thats the pedal that i have
Wow a couple things right off the bat.
Just because his "guitards" are running a 4x12 each it does not follow that he cant possibly keep up with only a 15" and a 2x10. I play with a band that has THREE guitar amps that all are all tube amps on 4x12 cabs. I get the job done with a 2x12 and a 1x15. I could be louder sure, but you will notice the second I stop playing. I am definetly in there.
As far as cutting through with mids. Sure mids take less power to generate than lows, but once you depend on mids to carry your tone you are on thin ice. That is snare drum, vocals and guitar amp territory. If I am in a battle for EQ real estate I retreat to the lows and the highs. It is usually easy to go under the guitars. The lowest they get is 70hz on a good day. Then crank in some 4k or so for that metallic clank.
But while we are on the subject of mids, the other day at practice all night long my amp was sounding weak and undefined. I kept playing with my bass' eq to try and make it better but it only got worse. I could hear bass, but no note definition. turns out my mid knob was on zero, fully cut. Must have brushed it with my sleeve? I brought it back up to 4 and it was all good again.
Ampegs. The solid state heads arent so great compared to the real SVT's but they do get loud. their cabinets are pretty lame IMHO. They dont go terribly low and they dont have much bite in the mids though having a mostly boogie rig I guess I am spoiled!
While their 8x10's are well known to be thunderous, the 4x10's seem to be very weak.
I know it may go against your taste about having an all Ampeg rig (and it does look nice when your amp and cab have the same brand logo/colors) I would check out Eden, Boogie, Avatar and GK. The GK 4x12 neo and 2x12 neo cabs are nice and light as well as sounding good and loud. Heck the 2x12 is 4 ohms, weighs 35 lbs and takes 600 watts!
two of those would handle 1200 watts. Take that guitards!
In the meantime I would try and focus on the eq. Figure out what part of the upper mid/treble you can use to define your notes with while boosting the bass your guitars cant touch. You can go for a midrangey tone also, and I tend to like that myself sometimes, but it only takes a new fuzz pedal on the guitars to wipe out that tone.
PS listening to the band you said you like, that bassists tone seem to be all low end and low mid with a tiny bit of treble. Could be the recording. Producers love to push the bass out of the way to make the guitars sound bigger.
But thats pretty much 8x10 territory. Lots and lots of low mid. OTOH 2x15 rig will go a bit lower and have a nice midrange clank to it.
Pretty much all the hardcore bands I have ever been in, seen or done sound for use 8x10 or 2x15. There are exceptions of course, but for mosh pit/slam dancing music you need to go low with authority.
Just because his "guitards" are running a 4x12 each it does not follow that he cant possibly keep up with only a 15" and a 2x10. I play with a band that has THREE guitar amps that all are all tube amps on 4x12 cabs. I get the job done with a 2x12 and a 1x15. I could be louder sure, but you will notice the second I stop playing. I am definetly in there.
As far as cutting through with mids. Sure mids take less power to generate than lows, but once you depend on mids to carry your tone you are on thin ice. That is snare drum, vocals and guitar amp territory. If I am in a battle for EQ real estate I retreat to the lows and the highs. It is usually easy to go under the guitars. The lowest they get is 70hz on a good day. Then crank in some 4k or so for that metallic clank.
But while we are on the subject of mids, the other day at practice all night long my amp was sounding weak and undefined. I kept playing with my bass' eq to try and make it better but it only got worse. I could hear bass, but no note definition. turns out my mid knob was on zero, fully cut. Must have brushed it with my sleeve? I brought it back up to 4 and it was all good again.
Ampegs. The solid state heads arent so great compared to the real SVT's but they do get loud. their cabinets are pretty lame IMHO. They dont go terribly low and they dont have much bite in the mids though having a mostly boogie rig I guess I am spoiled!
While their 8x10's are well known to be thunderous, the 4x10's seem to be very weak.
I know it may go against your taste about having an all Ampeg rig (and it does look nice when your amp and cab have the same brand logo/colors) I would check out Eden, Boogie, Avatar and GK. The GK 4x12 neo and 2x12 neo cabs are nice and light as well as sounding good and loud. Heck the 2x12 is 4 ohms, weighs 35 lbs and takes 600 watts!
two of those would handle 1200 watts. Take that guitards!
In the meantime I would try and focus on the eq. Figure out what part of the upper mid/treble you can use to define your notes with while boosting the bass your guitars cant touch. You can go for a midrangey tone also, and I tend to like that myself sometimes, but it only takes a new fuzz pedal on the guitars to wipe out that tone.
PS listening to the band you said you like, that bassists tone seem to be all low end and low mid with a tiny bit of treble. Could be the recording. Producers love to push the bass out of the way to make the guitars sound bigger.
But thats pretty much 8x10 territory. Lots and lots of low mid. OTOH 2x15 rig will go a bit lower and have a nice midrange clank to it.
Pretty much all the hardcore bands I have ever been in, seen or done sound for use 8x10 or 2x15. There are exceptions of course, but for mosh pit/slam dancing music you need to go low with authority.
- Oct 30, 2007
- 802
- 11
- 39
- Disclosures
- Endorsing Artist: Fender Musical Instruments, SIT strings
I had several different cab combinations: 2x10 & 1x15, 8x10, 410hlf, and (2) 8x10 cabs. I used these with my SVT-CL amp, and I did see varied results--2x10 & 1x15 was definitely the weakest combo--even playing beside two guitarists playing thru 1x12 and 2x12 combos, it was tough to hear my rig, even with my mids boosted as I always have them. My favorite was definitely (2) 8x10s, but that was just for research and practice sessions. My go-to for several years was the single 8x10, which is what I would definitely recommend overall...for simplicity's sake though, I have finally ended up keeping the 410hlf, which I would also recommend highly: boosted lows, smaller physical size, and 4 ohms and capable of heavy duty load handling. I now run a SVT-VR thru the 410HLF for a pretty great sound. Good luck, hope this helps!
I read a lot of misinformed comment in this thread.
First you need to understand that the wattage of your cabs have nothing to do with what your head will pump out or how loud you are going to be.
A 400w cab simply means that the manufacturer suggest you run it at no more than 400w.
Having a 200w cab with your head is a bad idea, because your head is capable of putting out way more power than it can take, on top of it, your cab is likely to sound very disorted at high volume.
When people tell you that you are limited by the lowest wattage cab x 2 it is because of the following,
I wont go into electrical theory but you need to understand ohms and watts.
I'll give you an example:
Your amp, at full volume, puts out 1200W into 4 ohms.
let's say you have two identical 8 ohm cabs they will each be ''fed'' with 600W, exactly half the power.
Now let's say you have an 8ohm cab that is good for 600W and the other is good for 200W, You can't turn up really loud because the 200W cab will start distorting and might blow up before the other cab is even fed enough power to start sounding good.
An important thing to know, your head put's out 1200w at FULL power, which you will likely never use, you simply don't use that head with all the knobs cranked, it just never happens. that mean that you don't need to use a 1200w cab, in fact with a 500-600w cab you are going to be fine and never have a problem.
I had an SVT-4 for years, and know this head inside out.
This head sounds at its best when bridged, it has more punch that way.
You also need to know about the limiter lights and how they work
there is two light
The red one and the orange one.
The red one, when it lights up is not a bad sign at all, in fact when playing loudly (as in hitting the strings hard) it should light up fairly often, it does not indicate clipping, That light is supposed to light up on string signal, if it never lights up your gain is simply too low. Don't forget that tubes like to be run fairly hard to sound fat and warm. I had the best results with the gain fairly high.
The orange light is bad however, it indicates that your amp is clipping and that is really bad for your speakers, especially with such a high power head. that light should almost never turn on.
If I was you I would ditch your low wattage cabinet, and buy a good 4x10 that is 500-600w then you would be good.
You must know that bass is hard to get loud, if you have two stupidly loud guitar players playing cranked 100w tube stacks, they will be able to drown you out even if you had an 8x10. So even with your 1200w head don't expect it to sound like the voice of god...
First you need to understand that the wattage of your cabs have nothing to do with what your head will pump out or how loud you are going to be.
A 400w cab simply means that the manufacturer suggest you run it at no more than 400w.
Having a 200w cab with your head is a bad idea, because your head is capable of putting out way more power than it can take, on top of it, your cab is likely to sound very disorted at high volume.
When people tell you that you are limited by the lowest wattage cab x 2 it is because of the following,
I wont go into electrical theory but you need to understand ohms and watts.
I'll give you an example:
Your amp, at full volume, puts out 1200W into 4 ohms.
let's say you have two identical 8 ohm cabs they will each be ''fed'' with 600W, exactly half the power.
Now let's say you have an 8ohm cab that is good for 600W and the other is good for 200W, You can't turn up really loud because the 200W cab will start distorting and might blow up before the other cab is even fed enough power to start sounding good.
An important thing to know, your head put's out 1200w at FULL power, which you will likely never use, you simply don't use that head with all the knobs cranked, it just never happens. that mean that you don't need to use a 1200w cab, in fact with a 500-600w cab you are going to be fine and never have a problem.
I had an SVT-4 for years, and know this head inside out.
This head sounds at its best when bridged, it has more punch that way.
You also need to know about the limiter lights and how they work
there is two light
The red one and the orange one.
The red one, when it lights up is not a bad sign at all, in fact when playing loudly (as in hitting the strings hard) it should light up fairly often, it does not indicate clipping, That light is supposed to light up on string signal, if it never lights up your gain is simply too low. Don't forget that tubes like to be run fairly hard to sound fat and warm. I had the best results with the gain fairly high.
The orange light is bad however, it indicates that your amp is clipping and that is really bad for your speakers, especially with such a high power head. that light should almost never turn on.
If I was you I would ditch your low wattage cabinet, and buy a good 4x10 that is 500-600w then you would be good.
You must know that bass is hard to get loud, if you have two stupidly loud guitar players playing cranked 100w tube stacks, they will be able to drown you out even if you had an 8x10. So even with your 1200w head don't expect it to sound like the voice of god...
JustOpenYourMind............
Thanks for fully explaining it to the O.P.
Most times I don't have the time or concentration to post a detailed post like you did.
thanks
Thanks for fully explaining it to the O.P.
Most times I don't have the time or concentration to post a detailed post like you did.
thanks
thanks for all the advice. With my vehicle there is just no way I'm going to be able to have a 6-10, 2-15, or 8-10. I'm going to be sticking with ampeg svt cabinets here, so what do you all suggest... a svt 410hlf alone or a svt 410he and my svt 115? I'll try not to look at wattage that much and be a more educated buyer, I can be an impulse shopper sometimes without looking into things too much. I understand that with a 200 watt and 500 watt cab setup, each cab will only get 200 watts, but thats a lot of speaker area and you guys are saying watts aren't that important, but i've heard a lot of good things about the svt 410hlf and its not too big. I'm going to work on my eq and the guitar amps, but the set up I have now is just not enough, and i'll probably end up blowing my cabs in the process.
+1
I made the change to an Ampeg SVT 410 HLF and now enjoy some solid lows.
Also +1 to eq - mids are your baby.
If you are a pocket player and want that "Notched" tone then you will be where you are in the mix. Most guitar players, as stated above, love the low end. You will have to sort that out in the overall mix.
I recently adjusted my preferred eq settings, using a frown rather than a smile. I can now play at a lower volume and am more present in the mix. The SVT410HLF carries low end well, I do think it helped in my case as I still have plenty of low end.
to run big volume, it takes big cabs. that's just the way it is. i think your idea of having a talk with everyone about turning down is the way to go. i think a lot of times, young guys in bands have no idea how loud they really are because their amps are small and not pointing at their heads. what you all need to do is angle your cabs so they point to your heads so you can hear them as they really sound. strive not to drown each other out like you're playing to a recording in your bedroom, strive to get a mix that sounds like a band on a recording where everything is nice and balanced.
Since you are running a head that is standard equipment at most Guitar Centers, why not head down to one and try out a bunch of different cabinets to see which one gets loudest with your tone?
You dont have to buy anything *really*.
I tried almost every speaker at the GC in EL Cerrito a few weeks ago and narrowed it down to either the Mesa or GK 4-12 or 2-12. Now for the money to show up?
And again, all these guys saying they cant compete with their guitarists low end are INSANE. Grow some heuvos and show your guitarists what a BASS guitar is. They are encroaching on your birthright!
You dont have to buy anything *really*.
I tried almost every speaker at the GC in EL Cerrito a few weeks ago and narrowed it down to either the Mesa or GK 4-12 or 2-12. Now for the money to show up?
And again, all these guys saying they cant compete with their guitarists low end are INSANE. Grow some heuvos and show your guitarists what a BASS guitar is. They are encroaching on your birthright!
The way that head works is like a standard 2 channel PA amp... it has two amps inside it. If you hook a cab up to each side (side A and B) you are running each amp at 8 ohms. this will get you the least possible power from this head. now if you are using the "deep" switch and the compressor set anywhere past 9 o'clock you are gonna use up your headroom fast!
the best way to use that amp is to bridge the two internal amps together with a specially wired cable (will get you the full 1200watts and best tone). this way the amp cannot run at less than 4 ohm but thats not a problem with your two cabs, so get the correct cable, run the amp bridged into the one cab and then chain that cab to the other. The amp is built to be run this way, don't worry...
turn the deep switch off, cut back on the compressor and set your master volume to nearly full, then adjust the gain till you get the volume you are looking for... ( or adjust your gain according to the lights as suggested above and then set your master volume as desired)
be aware that you are running more watts into the cabs than they can handle so if you are pushing the head very hard when bridged then you are increasing your chances of doing damage to the cabs, but if you don't push the speakers to the point where they are distorting then you should be just fine
if you still can't get enough volume, then I'm afraid it's time for more speakers
the best way to use that amp is to bridge the two internal amps together with a specially wired cable (will get you the full 1200watts and best tone). this way the amp cannot run at less than 4 ohm but thats not a problem with your two cabs, so get the correct cable, run the amp bridged into the one cab and then chain that cab to the other. The amp is built to be run this way, don't worry...
turn the deep switch off, cut back on the compressor and set your master volume to nearly full, then adjust the gain till you get the volume you are looking for... ( or adjust your gain according to the lights as suggested above and then set your master volume as desired)
be aware that you are running more watts into the cabs than they can handle so if you are pushing the head very hard when bridged then you are increasing your chances of doing damage to the cabs, but if you don't push the speakers to the point where they are distorting then you should be just fine
if you still can't get enough volume, then I'm afraid it's time for more speakers
ha i do use the deep button, and i might have the compressor past 9 o clock. The thing is I use the those to get the best tone out of the head, so instead of working around those I might have to buy a better cab. I've tried plugging speaker cables into amp a and amp b slots, and i've mono bridged them and chained the cabs together, i didn't see a difference, but i never changed the stereo/bridge button on the back of the head from in to out, that could be it. I'll mess with it and have the guitar players turn down their bass today at practice. Then i'll see whether or not i need a new cab.
hehe fair enough if thats giving you the tone you are looking for then hopefully setting it in bridged mode with the correctly wired cable (for some reason they have a strangely wired speakon cable for this? search these forums and you should be able to find it...) solves the volume issue.
if not, using the deep switch and then compressing the sound heavily seems counter productive to me, but then again I don't know what tone you are going for... pushing the low end will use up the headroom of your amp faster resulting in a lower overall volume before clipping starts.
I'm sure the guys above have probably also suggested adding some mids to help cut through the mix and hear yourself better?
ps. please don't think I'm trying to tell you you are doing anything wrong, just running through some troubleshooting suggestions
hope it all works out for you!
if thats giving you the tone you are looking for then hopefully setting it in bridged mode with the correctly wired cable (for some reason they have a strangely wired speakon cable for this? search these forums and you should be able to find it...) solves the volume issue.if not, using the deep switch and then compressing the sound heavily seems counter productive to me, but then again I don't know what tone you are going for... pushing the low end will use up the headroom of your amp faster resulting in a lower overall volume before clipping starts.
I'm sure the guys above have probably also suggested adding some mids to help cut through the mix and hear yourself better?
ps. please don't think I'm trying to tell you you are doing anything wrong, just running through some troubleshooting suggestions
hope it all works out for you!
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