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Why can’t I tell flat from sharp?

B

BassUrges

Mar 14, 2016
1,337
3,071
Denver
#1
I have been dogged by a problem since I started on fretless several years ago: I can hear that a note is out of tune, but not if it is sharp or flat.

I got Tunerval to work on my ear training, and it has confirmed this weird problem. I can tell in-tune from out, but I think I’m doing worse than random guessing for the direction.

Does anyone else have this problem? Suggestions?
 
#2
So you know it is off, but, is it sharp or flat? On the fretless that can be just a matter of a fraction of an inch.

Because my ears are tin - and old - I missed the sweet spot quite a lot. Gave my no line fretless to a teenager and he had no problem.

I remember when I first started out, back in the dark ages, I could not tell if the next note was going to be up scale or down scale. Just being off a flat or sharp came later.

Keep playing, and be realistic, if you still have this problem there may be a lined fretless in your future....
 
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#3
My current fretless is lined, although my upright and the Mermaid Bass are not. But it’s not practical to stare at my left hand all the time.

I was kind of hoping this had a cure. I’ll keep on with the Tunerval and hope it gets better.
 
#4
If you hear that you're out of tune, move the note. It will get better or worse. If worse, go the other way.
Which way to move first. Most people musicians and general public can hear that a note is flat easier than if it's sharp. So, if you hear that you're not in tune with the other sounds, go sharp, if that doesn't fix the problem, go flat. The more you do this the faster you'll be at moving, and quicker to fix the sound.
 
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#5
If you aren't already, I would suggest that you sing or hum the notes that you play. Singing enough will help you develop a natural "reference pitch" in your head, and this should help you determine whether something is flat or sharp. If you can already tell that something is off pitch, then you already have an idea of what the correct pitch is. Hum the wrong pitch, hum the correct pitch, and use that feedback to make your decision.
 
#6
juggahnaught said:
If you aren't already, I would suggest that you sing or hum the notes that you play. Singing enough will help you develop a natural "reference pitch" in your head, and this should help you determine whether something is flat or sharp. If you can already tell that something is off pitch, then you already have an idea of what the correct pitch is. Hum the wrong pitch, hum the correct pitch, and use that feedback to make your decision.
Click to expand...

That’s what I’ve been trying to do with Tunerval, but it’s still a struggle to get it right. I have taken to bracketing (humming the scale notes on either side, a bit like naval gunnery) and find that helps some of the time.
 
#8
My ears have been suspect for years. Nerve damage - can not distinguish words in the left ear and wear a hearing aid in the right. My left ear is so far gone there is no reason for a hearing aid for that ear.

So I have relied upon dirt simple theory to help me with what probably is going to be happening.

Sharp or flat? I follow the fret lines and side dots, and hope I got it right. I put some dots of finger nail polish on the side of the neck for the flat keys we used and this did help. The guys did not give me "the fish eye" so I think I was OK most of the time.

Fret lines, side dots and finger nail polish helped.
 
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#9
Distinguishing between higher and lower pitches is the first step in ear training. You can’t really achieve the other steps till you master this. Perhaps your software has a program that plays two pitches, and you have to identify the second as higher, lower, or the same. Master this, then gradually narrow your pitches down to a half step apart.

If you’re curious, here are the order of steps for ear training:
  1. Distinguishing higher/lower pitches
  2. Pitch matching
  3. Learning all melodic intervals ascending
  4. Learning all melodic intervals descending
  5. Learning all intervals harmonically (both notes at same time)
  6. Melodic dictation (transcribing melodies)
  7. Learn to identify chord qualities (major, minor, augmented, diminished, suspended)
  8. Learn chord inversions
  9. Learn to aurally identify chord extensions (7, 9, 11, 13)
  10. Learn to aurally identify chord alterations (raised and lowered chord tones)
  11. Progressions. Identify chordal movement and voice leading.
  12. Harmonic dictation (chord transcriptions)
After this, you can pursue analysis, composition, arranging/orchestrating.
 
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#11
One very good practice for this issue is to tune your bass by ear, using the harmonics and a tuning fork.

You start by tuning the D string (if you have no tuning fork, use your tuner to tune the D string). The harmonic located above the 7th (or 19th) fret is an A (220 Hz) that you can compare and match to the A (440 Hz) of your tuning fork that you hold (vibrating) above your pickup.

Once your D string is tuned, you can tune the G string by matching the D harmonics respectively located above the 7th fret of the G string and 5th fret of the D string. Listen to them carefully. Play the D string (you reference) first, and then the G string, trying to detect whether your G string is flat or sharp. The thing you should pay attention to are the beats (periodic intensity modulation) that can be heard when the tuning is not perfect. The frequency of the beats is equal to the difference of the frequencies of the harmonics of the G and D strings. So, if you hear a 2 Hz beat (2 beats/second), this means that your G string is 2 Hz too low or too high. You need to adjust it so that the beat becomes so slow that it is no longer noticeable.

You can thus proceed by tuning the A string (5th fret harmonic on A string matched to 7th fret harmonic on D string), and then The E string (5th fret harmonic on E string matched to the 7th fret harmonic on A string).

Then the frequencies of successive strings are exactly in 3/4 ratios, i.e., a pecfect 4th apart.

The method is more accurate for the high strings than the low ones, but that is fine, as our pitch discrimination is also more accurate for high sounds than for low ones. For a similar reason, even with a tuner, I find it more accurate to tune by using the octave harmonic (12th fret) rather than the open string.
 
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#12
Please be aware that "Pitch Discrimination" is an aptitude, and some people have it more than others, and some not at all (I'm sure you've met some).
However with continued training, you should be able to get whatever you have working as well as possible.
 
#13
There's no shortcut, you just have to train your ear and hands. Try this:

play open A, and then the A on the 12th fret. Purposely play the upper A very flat (almost a full fret) and slide up until you think it is in tune, check yourself with a tuner then do it again. Do this many times to internalize the sound of the pitch sliding in that direction. Then try the same starting very sharp and slide down. Eventually you'll be able to hear the slide in your ear as soon as you play the note off and you'll instinctively slide in the right direction. That's how you train for an octave, now repeat using a 5th, then a 4th, then major third, etc. Spend a few minutes doing this everyday.
 
#14
Can't recommend the singing part enough. Half the battle of good intonation is hearing the note before you play it. Play, and sing, the first note and while the first one is ringing out sing the second one before moving to it. You'll find you have a lot more stability in where you want to go. Then it's just reps and shifting exercises like that to keep it consistent.

I'd even start with the basic singing stuff at a keyboard just to really solidify those sounds easier. If you are hearing and singing stuff sharp or flat to begin with then it's an even bigger task to fix.
 

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