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Why do effect pedals cost so much?

#21
^woo dang dude you type alot

But yah its kinda frustrating i have built a few pedals and it adds up really quick.

But then you see DVD players at walmart for like 25 bucks

and those have gears and lasers and lights and keypad remotes

bunch of crazy stuff compared to a pedal...heck a DIY DVD player would cost a fortune, but yet somebody can make em for 25 bucks

depends on who yah know and where yah get your parts and labor.
 
#22
BogeyBass said:
^woo dang dude you type alot

But yah its kinda frustrating i have built a few pedals and it adds up really quick.

But then you see DVD players at walmart for like 25 bucks

and those have gears and lasers and lights and keypad remotes

bunch of crazy stuff compared to a pedal...heck a DIY DVD player would cost a fortune, but yet somebody can make em for 25 bucks

depends on who yah know and where yah get your parts and labor.
Click to expand...

That is quantity vs. quality. Those large companies are buying millions of parts at a time to get a ridiculous cost on them.
 
#23
Von Felgenhauer said:
That is quantity vs. quality. Those large companies are buying millions of parts at a time to get a ridiculous cost on them.
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Actually, it's profit margin. If you sell 1000000 units and make $5 on each, you have $5000000 in your pocket. If you sell 1000 units and make $50 on each, you have $50000 in your pocket.

R&D costs are same if you sell 1 unit or 1000000 units. Manufacturing setup (big f'ckin part of cake) - it's same thing. Those are some fixed cost, that will eat up into your cost-profit equation.
And yes, when you build in quantity, price per unit of manufacturing and components goes down in steep dive.

Mass production doesn't have to mean cheap parts, but - if you sell millions of units, suddenly it becomes important if you pay 0.7 cents for for some really good 'lytic cap, or 0.2 cents for something that just works and not much more than that.



WilliamSandoval said:
I just never understood how they could go on the market for a couple hundred bucks when it's really just a metal case and a circuit board
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You know, most of those dang electronic gizmos are just case, PCB and some electronic components. Strange, huh?
You know what's even more perplexing? Software doesn't have even metal case and PCB. Why the hell software cost any money at all ????????


he just asking man no reason to be passive agressive
Click to expand...
Actually, Kaputsport gave best answer OP could get. Going down teh Marry Road of full cycle of product development is only way for OP to fully grasp whole thing.
 
#24
I can't say I understand this question.
Without wanting to be mean, I find it kind of offensive to people who try and work hard to build quality products. Or even low quality products.
It takes time to think a pedal through, design it, find and buy parts, build, solder, paint (or whatever you want in the end). And on the other hand, it's an art.
Why doesn't Rush play for 20$ a gig?
Because they put time, effort and money behind an art they believe in and stand by.

I could go ranting about this now, but ok, in any case, the fact of the matter is is that any person has a right to put a price point on their product if they stand by it, and it's up to them to live with the consequences, if there are any. Too expensive? Don't buy it.
 
#25
I am not a robot, but if I was, my company would move much faster and more efficiently.

I won't discuss what our profit is from each pedal, but I will say that if my wife and I charged $15/hour for our work, the profit margin would be down to roughly zero. Most of us builders in the boutique world have to charge a little more because we make each one by hand, part by part, box by box...

The "bigger" companies employ a lot of people (jobs, benefits, mouths to feed) and have to the opportunity to market through a much larger market (GC, Sam Ash, Best Buy). The stores mark up because they too have employees...

If you're into handmade work that has some love and hard work put into it, buy boutique and maintain and hands-on, personal touch. Sometimes GC, while it might be the easiest, is not always the best path.
 
#26
WilliamSandoval said:
But with effect pedals, you are practically paying for a metal box made by a robot. You see where I'm coming from?
Click to expand...

And they get the metal for free. And find the robot in the dumpster...

A Noble potentiometer costs 20 bucks, maybe 12 or 15 if you buy in bulk. A pedal may have 2 or 3.

One OPAMP may cost 6 or 8 dollars. A pedal may have 2 or 3.

Also, apparently you don't know how much a tantalum capacitor or a high-precision resistor goes for.

Then you got the jacks, case, wiring, soldering, boards, hardware, equipment, a facility, employees, rent, water bill, energy bill, taxes, R&D costs, marketing, etc...

All that said. You can still find 20 bucks pedals out there. Cheap components and China labor allow it to happen.
 
#29
As the leader of a company which has gotten into this market from nothing, many key points have been touched upon above. The guy who wrote the long item on the start-up costs nailed the cost of entry, but missed the marketing and brand development aspect. Getting our pedals into the minds of those who might purchase them requires a good web site, appearances at NAMM, advertising, artists, videos and much much more. In fact, most stores WILL NOT stock an item unless the pedal company creates demand so the pedals sell themselves.

The engineering, manufacturing and marketing and start-up costs for a pedal can cost anywhere from $100,000 to $1,000,000 (depending on the complexity of the pedal and how much effort you put into marketing). If you are Delta Lab, Beringer, Digitech, Boss, etc. then you can spread that cost over tens of thousands of pedals and sell them for a thin margin. If you are like us, you need to spread that cost over a few thousand pedals and you must have more margin (I need to pay great guys Bob, Jesse, Will and Jeff and provide healthcare, etc.). If you are a really boutique house, then you need to spread that cost over perhaps a hundred pedals and you need even MORE margin. Many of these folks are one-man garage operations.

If you want to get rich, DO NOT get in the pedal market. It is very competitive, and most customers demand high quality, durability, perfection, and low cost.

This is a very interesting thread! Right up my alley!
 
#30
Not being too proud here but If I was building pedals my labor better be $25 an hour, at that rate you haven't even begun to account for materials.

Granted pedals priced at $300 are overpriced, I think a fair price to pay for a new pedal would be in the $50-$150 dollar range...

I haven't seen very many pedals that garner that much attention....
 
#31
Tyler Kirschner said:
lotsa behringer pedals are like 20 bucks aren't they?
Click to expand...

Indeed. And a couple of years ago, Danelectro came out with a line of well built, true bypass, good sounding pedals (the Cool Cat line), some of which cost $20 or so.

They sold like hotcakes, and then Danelectro jacked up the prices, presumably because the market would bear it. For outfits like Danelectro making a very large number of identical pedals under contract in the far east, per unit costs are quite low. I'm assuming they're making an awfully big margins on their now $50 pedals.

For small manufacturers, and especially small manufactures building stuff in the US, per unit costs are going to be WAY (and I mean WAY, WAY) higher. In the world of electronics, low volume is the enemy of low cost. There are very good economic reasons that the small effects building operations that actually stay in business charge a premium over the mass produced pedals from the huge companies.
 
#32
allexcosta said:
A Noble potentiometer costs 20 bucks, maybe 12 or 15 if you buy in bulk. A pedal may have 2 or 3.

One OPAMP may cost 6 or 8 dollars. A pedal may have 2 or 3.
Click to expand...
Eight dollar opamps exist, but I've never seen one used in an effects pedal. The ones that show up most frequently in pedals tend to be the TI TL07x series, which are well under a buck, even in quantities of one. Closer to $0.25 if you can afford to by 1000 at a time.


allexcosta said:
Also, apparently you don't know how much a tantalum capacitor or a high-precision resistor goes for.
Click to expand...

If you spent more than a couple cents on a precision resistor, you've spent too much.
 
#33
I resent being called a robot.

Boxes at my company are all assembled by hand by an actual person. we make every effort to create stuff that is functional and great looking on the inside.

It takes money to pay me, my payroll taxes, to advertise for new pedals, to produce prototypes, to adjust the website if needed, to order parts, to pay rent on the building, to pay for liability insurance, the power bill, the heating bill, the water bill, the list goes on and on and on.

EDIT: I forgot to add paying down a small business loan to the money paragraph.
 
#34
rsmith601 said:
This is a very interesting thread!
Click to expand...

Absolutely. I also agree with pretty much else you've posted.

Speaking for myself, it's not as much as the price being an issue as much as benefits received in counterpart of price paid. If I choose to spend 500 $ (not the case so far, but ya never know, right ?) on a pedal that delivers on its promise, I'm as satisfied as if I'd bought a 50 $ pedal and get the same feeling. If it doesn't, well I ain't happy, wether I paid 50 or 500 bananas. Additionally, there's the matter of understanding what a pedal will and will not do that has an impact on customer satisfaction.

Also, I for one won't expect a 50 $ pedal to systematically deliver the same benefits than a 500 $ pedal. But that's just me.

Granted, there are probably over-priced pedals out there, but I believe that in general you do get what you pay for. IMO, this basically applies to any dimension of consumership, cars being a typical example.

Now I'm going to lie down after writing which is probably my longest post ever.

:)
 
#35
At the moment, every pedal on my board was assembled by hand.

Here's a video of one of them being built.

How it's made: Boutique Pedal Microtubes B3K

And the end product is an expensive pedal. But I can guarantee that Douglas (owner of Darkglass) isn't getting rich selling them. Neither are the builders who have chimed in on this thread, Steve at Empress, Ryan at Dr. Scientist, Josh at Malekko, Richard at Chunk Systems, Taylor at Iron Ether, or any other small builder.

They price their products such that after ALL of their costs they can receive a living wage. As many have said, there is a LOT more going on than the raw component cost. And for most companies the margins are pretty thin. I can understand people not wanting to pay the going rate for pedals.

Personally I'm on the side of being grateful for all the builders that create and sell such cool boxes. After all, it isn't an easy business to succeed in.
 
#36
Handyman said:
Eight dollar opamps exist, but I've never seen one used in an effects pedal. The ones that show up most frequently in pedals tend to be the TI TL07x series, which are well under a buck, even in quantities of one. Closer to $0.25 if you can afford to by 1000 at a time.

(...)

If you spent more than a couple cents on a precision resistor, you've spent too much.
Click to expand...

True about the OPamps, but I can't seem to find Kiwame resistor for less than 2 bucks each...

Of course, I am calculating boutique high-end stuff here, since he CAN get pedals for 20 bucks...
 
#37
Actually I have pretty good insight in a small business company producing TV accessories. There are many variables when comes to production. You have to organize buying those all electronic elements, PCBs, metal boxes in advance. Then a gadget have to pass electromagnetic laws... You have to test thoroughly even on per unit basis' deal with cooperants, deal with fiscal matters, deal with employes.

Only if things could be easier...
 
#38
kaputsport said:
Tell ou what. Go into business designing and engineering pedals, constructing them, painting, labeling them, marketing them and distributing them, all for $20 each and tell me how long you stay in business.
Click to expand...

you forgot making the tools in order to mass manufacture.
I find many pedals to have a very fair price. Same gos to many amps and basses. And I mean also the high end.
 

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