Why do manufacturers make instruments with a forward neck angle?

[Istruggle]

I have one bass (budget brand) and a guitar (super cheap no brand generic) that both have a neck angle like this (obviously the image is exagerated, it is subtle in the instruments)

Is there any reason for them to do it like this? I measured the dept of the neck pocket and it indeed angles up from the back to the front of the pocket. I don't see how this could be cheaper than just doing straight level routing. could be it a way to save time (thus money) on a properly leveled fret job?

By contrast I have an Ibanez RG270 with a backward angle on the neck pocket, which is more "normal" I think.

Any of you ever built an instrument like this or seen it higher end instruments? Is there any advantage that you can think of?

 

[Docduval]

If anything it would give worse ergonomics. I’m guessing it’s a design flaw.

 

[FRoss6788]

Garbage QC….

 

[Bass4ThePublic]

Your answer lies within “super cheap” and “budget brand”.

 

[Bar Band Bassman]

I'm going to weigh in with what will likely be an unpopular observation. I have owned 3, and checked several more, Ric basses. 4001 and 4003. They all had a slight forward neck rake. It is the single thing that dissuades me from ever owning another. One TBer described it as "neck fold" which I find apt. All the other wonky Ric features: wonky bridge and mute, treble pickup cover (which I actually like!), finicky dual truss rod (since replaced, I know), almost worthless neck pickup (IMO) are things I can live with. That forward rake? Nope. If they ever wanted to make a Bar Band Bassman signature model (not bloody likely!) it would HAVE TO have a 2 degree back rake. Not that anyone gives a fig what I think.

BBB

 

[Bruce Johnson]

I have one bass (budget brand) and a guitar (super cheap no brand generic) that both have a neck angle like this (obviously the image is exagerated, it is subtle in the instruments)View attachment 7279914

Is there any reason for them to do it like this? I measured the dept of the neck pocket and it indeed angles up from the back to the front of the pocket. I don't see how this could be cheaper than just doing straight level routing. could be it a way to save time (thus money) on a properly leveled fret job?

By contrast I have an Ibanez RG270 with a backward angle on the neck pocket, which is more "normal" I think.

Any of you ever built an instrument like this or seen it higher end instruments? Is there any advantage that you can think of?

No, I can't think of any reason to deliberately build an electric bass or guitar like that. It's bad design or workmanship. Maybe they changed bridge suppliers and the new bridges were too low? So, the compensated by slightly reverse-tilting the neck pocket.

Most electric basses are built flat, no neck angle. Generally, on basses, we want some good string clearance over the body, at the heel. Adding some normal tilt-back neck angle lowers the strings closer to the body, near the heel. A few manufacturers and builders, like Rickenbacker, put in a small amount of neck angle, for their own reasons.

Neck angle is more popular on Les Paul type guitars, with tall bridges and thick bodies. Tilting the neck back makes them a little more comfortable to hold and play. But they are only using a pick, and don't need the string clearance that a bass does.

By the way, instruments in that price range don't even level the frets. They use a technique I call Smash Leveling.

 

[Smilodon]

The only advantage I can think of is that if you want to take up archery you don't have to buy a bow.

Seriously though, it may be because of the way the necks are made. Maybe it's somehow easier to cut the heel of the neck straight and angle the neck pocket. Still, it's an odd way of doing it, because then you need an angled AND a straight fixture (or 4 axis CNC) to rout the pockets in the body, which is more expensive and time consuming.

 

[ardgedee]

I don't see how this could be cheaper than just doing straight level routing.

It can possibly be compensation for something else that's cheaper to put up with than to fix. For example maybe they bought a batch of bridges that had lower profile than they expected, or their models for the CNC had errors and it was cheaper to angle the neck heel pocket than to fix the rest of the bodies.

 

[kmon]

I'm going to weigh in with what will likely be an unpopular observation. I have owned 3, and checked several more, Ric basses. 4001 and 4003. They all had a slight forward neck rake. It is the single thing that dissuades me from ever owning another. One TBer described it as "neck fold" which I find apt. All the other wonky Ric features: wonky bridge and mute, treble pickup cover (which I actually like!), finicky dual truss rod (since replaced, I know), almost worthless neck pickup (IMO) are things I can live with. That forward rake? Nope. If they ever wanted to make a Bar Band Bassman signature model (not bloody likely!) it would HAVE TO have a 2 degree back rake. Not that anyone gives a fig what I think.

BBB

I had a 2018ish like this. Hated it. HATED IT. Can't shim it, you're just stuck with it.

Then I had an 81 that had almost no angle. That was great.

I have a thing for low, consistent action across the neck. Gotta have it.

 

[LFlab]

Can imagine that if you add a neck tilt/ micro tilt provision on an instrument, you purposely build in a bit of forward lean, because the tilt (a set screw in the body, between the neck screws), can only adjust in one direction (back).
You can do this with shims also (wedges, or a partial shim), but then, you need to take off the neck. So that is quite a process to find the right shim.

 

[Lowbrow]

OP: how do those 2 instruments mentioned play?

 

[HueyFreeman]

Could it be to compensate for a sh!tty truss rod?

 

[Istruggle]

OP: how do those 2 instruments mentioned play?

The bass I mentioned is the whole shebang, forward neck angle from factory, then developed a 12th fret kink and a forward bow. It's been my only bass for 14 years. After having had the opportunity of playing 2 other budget instruments for more than a couple of minutes (but of more recent make, one probably mid 2010s, the other 2022 or so) I must say they played much better.

Something interesting is that the older of the two also had a forward neck angle, yet played much better than mine even before the other problems it developed despite the action being high; the strings somehow felt softer and easier to play despite both being the same standard 34" scale. The neck had a little relief, and played even better when set dead straight.

Just to let you know the brand on that one was called Jam Session, when I saw it I could help but laugh haha.

 

[andruca]

So that your headstock at least has a chance to NOT GO BUST in case of a backwards fall You eventually learn this with age (and enough Les Paul/SG breakage witnessed on the road)

 

[Major Seven]

No, I can't think of any reason to deliberately build an electric bass or guitar like that. It's bad design or workmanship. Maybe they changed bridge suppliers and the new bridges were too low? So, the compensated by slightly reverse-tilting the neck pocket.

Most electric basses are built flat, no neck angle. Generally, on basses, we want some good string clearance over the body, at the heel. Adding some normal tilt-back neck angle lowers the strings closer to the body, near the heel. A few manufacturers and builders, like Rickenbacker, put in a small amount of neck angle, for their own reasons.

Neck angle is more popular on Les Paul type guitars, with tall bridges and thick bodies. Tilting the neck back makes them a little more comfortable to hold and play. But they are only using a pick, and don't need the string clearance that a bass does.

By the way, instruments in that price range don't even level the frets. They use a technique I call Smash Leveling.

How does Smash Leveling work? How does a brand like Glarry get astonishingly level frets? Crazy decent basses for $99.

 

[Bruce Johnson]

How does Smash Leveling work? How does a brand like Glarry get astonishingly level frets? Crazy decent basses for $99.

I came up with the name Smash Leveling. In a factory operation that turns out 1000 instruments a month, they build up a large pneumatic press that presses all the frets in at the same time, using a long concave metal caul that spans the length of the fingerboard. The caul may be steel or bronze, and is machined to the desired radius of the fingerboard and frets. Over on another bench, a worker quickly picks out pieces of fretwire and lightly pushes them into the slots in the neck. Then the neck gets set into a firm silicone rubber cradle in the big press. With a single stroke, the big press smashes all the frets down into the neck. If all is good, they are all seated and the tops of them are all level as is. No additional leveling or crowning is needed. The ends are ground off and rounded a bit in another machine. The whole fretting operation takes less than a minute. And if the neck itself stays stable, it's a pretty good fret job.

In a smaller operation, the frets are pressed in and seated individually. Then they are leveled and crowned to get them all perfect. Maybe an hour of labor total. That's what you pay for in a more expensive instrument.

 

[-Asdfgh-]

Neck angle is more popular on Les Paul type guitars, with tall bridges and thick bodies. Tilting the neck back makes them a little more comfortable to hold and play. But they are only using a pick, and don't need the string clearance that a bass does.

I don't understand that, as I find my basses play less cleanly with a pick. Maybe I am doing it wrong as I am 99% fingers, including on guitar,

 

[Bruce Johnson]

I don't understand that, as I find my basses play less cleanly with a pick. Maybe I am doing it wrong as I am 99% fingers, including on guitar,

I think it's mostly about hand and arm position. My observation is that guitarists who are into Les Pauls mostly pick up closer to the neck, with their forearm resting on the middle of the body. Having the strings and neck heel down lower over the body is more comfortable. They are keeping their forearm almost still and using mostly wrist motion.

Most electric bassists who play with a pick are playing closer to the bridge, mostly to make the notes cleaner and faster. And they are putting more forearm motion into the picking, not keeping their forearm as tightly anchored on the body. Longer picking strokes with more power, because of the thick strings. And they generally like more clearance of the strings over the body.

That's what I meant.

 

[-Asdfgh-]

I think it's mostly about hand and arm position. My observation is that guitarists who are into Les Pauls mostly pick up closer to the neck, with their forearm resting on the middle of the body. Having the strings and neck heel down lower over the body is more comfortable. They are keeping their forearm almost still and using mostly wrist motion.

Most electric bassists who play with a pick are playing closer to the bridge, mostly to make the notes cleaner and faster. And they are putting more forearm motion into the picking, not keeping their forearm as tightly anchored on the body. Longer picking strokes with more power, because of the thick strings. And they generally like more clearance of the strings over the body.

That's what I meant.

Ah, for the 1% of the time I use a pick it's over the neck pickup. I can see how playing over the bridge would control string noise by limiting excursion. My wrist says no, though.

 

[Istruggle]

I took the reference image from this site, I didn't read the article in full until now:

Shimming for a Forward/Positive Neck-Angle — Haze Guitars

Can you reverse a shim to give your guitar a forward neck angle? Should you do this? Is there a benefit. Are some builders using this secret trick to improve their guitars?

hazeguitars.com

I has some interesting insights, and seems to prove that as long as origin point of string anchoring, pressure over bridge and neck angle produce a fitting, well, angle, then it shouldn't affect playability.

The last part is particularly interesting, it gave me an idea for an acoustic instrument where there is no bridge per se, the string is anchored to the soundboard itself, I wonder what that would sound and feel like.

Although it have a steep backwards angle instead of a forward angle.

Here is a quick mockup done with MS Paint:

Of course the structure and bracing would need to be specifically made for it in order to contain the shearing force while also keeping things thin and flexible enough to produce good tone.