Why do most new amps suck? or...

[Bassart1]

Who is bashing who here?

The first two comments were that I didn't know how to play bass.


I probably shouldn't have taken it personally. My original post was not a slag at all or anyone.

Bad Habit and Bass Art I am sorry if I offended you. I simply wanted to spark debate about the fact that most amps out today seem to not have the same beautiful character that amps had in the 70's. I truly think this is because the average bass player thinks that Rock is a four letter word and the manufacturers have followed suit.

No offense taken. Maybe you should re-think the title of your thread though.

 

[alexclaber]

I truly think this is because the average bass player thinks that Rock is a four letter word...

Well isn't it?

Alex

 

[gamera]

I understand what you are saying but let me ask you then... Would Tom Peterson sound the same with a Spector and a stock new SVT? Part of what makes the sound is the amp. like it or not. I think part of Tom's sound is vintage SVT and 8 or 12 string Hamers or Chandlers.

Was it neccesary to say I didn't know how to play though?

Put together 12 amp rigs of appropriate wattage from say the top 12 manufactures and get 12 competent working bassists and I will bet that all of them can get whatever sound they need from all 12 rigs.

I think the operative part of my point is "competent working bassists."

This is not to say that there will not be personal preferences.
That's why there are a lot of GOOD brands out there.
My point was not that "one" brand out there will make everyone happy.

Given the resources, I'll take the current amps over what was available in the 70's any day. I think most players around who were actually active in the 70's will feel the same way.
But hey, that's just my opinion.

IMHO if you get on stage with a modern "pro caliber" bass rig of appropriate power, in working condition, I say it's the players problem, not the amp, if he/she can't get a great sound with maybe the twist of a knob or two.

 

[Bassart1]

I understand what you are saying but let me ask you then... Would Tom Peterson sound the same with a Spector and a stock new SVT? Part of what makes the sound is the amp. like it or not. I think part of Tom's sound is vintage SVT and 8 or 12 string Hamers or Chandlers.

Was it neccesary to say I didn't know how to play though?

The implication was not that you didn't know how to play, just that you may not know a heck of a lot about using amps.

And yes, Tom Peterson will sound like Tom Peterson no matter which "pro" rig he plugs into regardless of the BRAND of "properly set up" 8 or 12 string bass he picks up.

 

[angelopb]

I love solid state power sections and how wonderfully light they can be, but there isn't a modern amp out there that can hold a candle to any of these things. Someday the bass community will wake up and demand more.

This is a modern amp that doesn't make a bass sound like a typewriter.

Invalid Link Removed

 

[brianrost]

Well if you REALLY plugged into an Acoustic 270 I'm confused, dude.

A 270 was a GUITAR amp and it did NOT have the amp in the cab (the earlier 260 did) and the bass versions (360 and 370) had an 18" not a 15", etc., etc. I assume you went to Rock City and tried their Acoustic 360, Kustom 250 w/2-15 and the old SVT head they currently have in stock.

Yeah, those amps sound great but they stopped making them for a number of reasons:

1. Too big
2. Too expensive
3. People wanted different sounds

I hate to say it but most modern amps are NOT made for "jazz", at least not most of 'em.

Want an amp made for jazz? Go check out Walter Woods or Acoustic Image, that's about it. Pretty much everything else is made for rock as far as I can tell.

Why else are the hottest new features in bass amps onboard distortion, 12" and 15" speakers with no tweeters, kilowatt+ power amps, etc. Jazz guys don't care about any of that stuff! In fact most jazz bassists (at least the DB toting kind) hate amps and look at them as a necessary evil.

Besides, 90% of what you like in those vintage amps is the speakers they used (midrangey) and low headroom power amps (200-300 watts max). You can still buy rigs like that and get that sound.

BTW, I saw Cheap Trick many times about 25 years ago when Tom was using Alembics (!!!) and Hamers for the most part and he sure sounded like himself.

 

[gamera]

Yes it was RCG. Yes it was the 370, sorry. And you are also right about the speakers as well.

Yes they are too big and too heavy, but don't they just sound great? I haven't heard much out there that has the same character as those amps.

I have to admit that I am a recent revert to bass. So I don't know as many new amps as I should but what I have heard doesn't hold a candle to most of the stuff from 68 to 74 or thereabouts.

 

[Selta]

I have to admit that I am a recent revert to bass. So I don't know as many new amps as I should but what I have heard doesn't hold a candle to most of the stuff from 68 to 74 or thereabouts.

Do some research before you speak from now on, that way you don't sound so ignorant.

MOST any modern amp can nail those sounds easily. So what if it's an FX pedal, it still can. After having used both sides of this story for years, I can attest to being able to get the old amp sound from new amps. But I like new amps a hell of a lot more, due to the fact that they get a BETTER rock sound, for me, and for a lot of people.

And they always say, tone lies in the hands, no where else .


Ray

 

[farboozle]

MOST any modern amp can nail those sounds easily.

which is why you never hear people on the discussion board say that they can't find the sound of an old all-tube amp from an iamp.

The implication was not that you didn't know how to play, just that you may not know a heck of a lot about using amps.

Thus, the problem is that a lot of discussion is devoted to the inherent sound in an amp, while far too little discussion is devoted to how to adjust an amp to get the sound you want. Please don't reply by quoting a few EQ threads, I'll end up wasting space by quoting all the replies on how an iamp sounds sterile.

Why else are the hottest new features in bass amps onboard distortion, 12" and 15" speakers with no tweeters, kilowatt+ power amps, etc. Jazz guys don't care about any of that stuff! In fact most jazz bassists (at least the DB toting kind) hate amps and look at them as a necessary evil.

While I'm not sure I agree with the old amp vs new amp thing, for some reason I'm still interested in the trend in rig design. I agree that amp's are being designed with effects, but I think a lot of emphasis is being placed on tweeters these days. The no tweeter option seems to be offered for people who want to buy a two cab rig, and only one tweeter.

 

[Selta]

which is why you never hear people on the discussion board say that they can't find the sound of an old all-tube amp from an iamp.
(snip)
While I'm not sure I agree with the old amp vs new amp thing, for some reason I'm still interested in the trend in rig design. I agree that amp's are being designed with effects, but I think a lot of emphasis is being placed on tweeters these days. The no tweeter option seems to be offered for people who want to buy a two cab rig, and only one tweeter.

Firstly, to your first comment, if you can't read then don't quote me. It's why I said MOST, not ALL or EVERY.
The no tweeter option is offered for those who want no tweeter for whatever reason. For me, I hate the damn things, and wont use one (though I hear scheroders are very nice, so I'm going to give it a shot and see). I do see your point though how most every cab come with them. I just know a whole lot of bassist who don't like them and avoid them (on every level of playing, from beginner to recording artists).

Everyone has their own taste, lets just leave this thread at that.

 

[RHFusillo]

Why did the early 70's just plain rule for bass amps?

The other day I was in Somerville at the best fricking place in the world to get used bass gear, and I plugged into three absolutely awesome and yet distinct amps.

The three amps were a Kustom 250, an Acoustic 270 and an Ampeg SVT from 71. All three of the amps just flat out blow away 99% of most new stuff.

I was wondering what Red Sox fans were going to start complaining about. Now I know.

You like apples? Well, how about them apples?

 

[cgworkman]

And to say that your band is "better" than mine is pure, PURE ignorance. You have never heard my band, and I have never heard yours, but needless to say, if everyone in your band shares the same personal characteristics that you do, I don't want to hear you either.

Nice.

 

[gamera]

I guess I was trying to be a little humble by saying that I haven't heard that much. The fact is I have heard enough to know that few solid state amps come close to nailing anything close to what these amps do.

I agree to a certain extent that "tone is in the hands" but Redd Volkaert won't sound the same playing with a dinky through a Marshall, regardless as to that cliche.

There are certainly things that some solid state amps seem to be able to do that vintage stuff can't but, no matter what you say, I disagree that most amps can be made to get any tone if the bass is "properly set up" and the amp is eq'd properly.

And no pedals don't really produce the same tones.

This whole arguement sounds like what people went through with modeling amps and guitar. Line 6's tweed settings don't really sound like tweeds, no matter how people try to spin it.

 

[Selta]

I guess I was trying to be a little humble by saying that I haven't heard that much. The fact is I have heard enough to know that few solid state amps come close to nailing anything close to what these amps do.

I agree to a certain extent that "tone is in the hands" but Redd Volkaert won't sound the same playing with a dinky through a Marshall, regardless as to that cliche.

There are certainly things that some solid state amps seem to be able to do that vintage stuff can't but, no matter what you say, I disagree that most amps can be made to get any tone if the bass is "properly set up" and the amp is eq'd properly.

And no pedals don't really produce the same tones.

This whole arguement sounds like what people went through with modeling amps and guitar. Line 6's tweed settings don't really sound like tweeds, no matter how people try to spin it.

Your ignorance is overwhelming! I talk out of YEARS of expirence, as do many others, with both pieces of equpiment. Heck, you'll get responses from people who were around when those were NEW, and you still say they're the ones who are wrong?

There are certainly things that some solid state amps seem to be able to do that vintage stuff can't

New amps are S.S. as well, that really doesn't have that much to do with it. The Acoustic you played was S.S. and you can't compare tube to S.S. amps really either, as they each have their own distinct characteristics, whether it be modern or vintage.
Take a VBA400, a YBA-200, an Acoustic 361 and a modern solid state amp put the tube ones in one room, put the S.S. in the other. Play the same bass, same song, same EQ settings (flat) and tell me they sound "very" different (when comparing the modern S.S. to the Vintage S.S. and the modern Tube to the Vintage Tube). I'll call you crazy if you do, cos well, you'd have to be. They may sound a little different, and I actually think that they do, but not enough to say that one or the other "sucks", or cannot reproduce the sound of the other, either. I'm actually half tempeted to try this myself now, recording the whole thing, and asking you which amp I'm using when, just to show you how wrong you really are (not trying to be mean [well, maybe I am at this point] but to simply show you)!

Ray

 

[Bassart1]

I guess I was trying to be a little humble by saying that I haven't heard that much. The fact is I have heard enough to know that few solid state amps come close to nailing anything close to what these amps do.

I agree to a certain extent that "tone is in the hands" but Redd Volkaert won't sound the same playing with a dinky through a Marshall, regardless as to that cliche.

There are certainly things that some solid state amps seem to be able to do that vintage stuff can't but, no matter what you say, I disagree that most amps can be made to get any tone if the bass is "properly set up" and the amp is eq'd properly.

And no pedals don't really produce the same tones.

This whole arguement sounds like what people went through with modeling amps and guitar. Line 6's tweed settings don't really sound like tweeds, no matter how people try to spin it.

Me thinks you need to re-read the previous posts you are paraphrasing from as there are several points you've misunderstood and taken out of context.

Many of us on this board have simply had the good fortune of being able to afford really good equipment both tube and transistor and I defy anyone to say they can't get a "Rock" sound on any of the "Pro level gear" from EA, Accugroove, Epifani, GK, SWR, Fender,Crown, Furman,QSC,Stewart,Ampeg, EBS,Bergantino,Bag End, Demeter,Mesa Boogie, etc...etc...

Your statement makes as much sense as saying that cars from the 70's are better than the cars we have now.
I'll definitely take my 2003 Aurora over a vintage Toranado.

However, as always your mileage may vary and there are exceptions. Such as a 1967 Corvette.

 

[Selta]

Me thinks you need to re-read the previous posts you are paraphrasing from as there are several points you've misunderstood and taken out of context.

Many of us on this board have simply had the good fortune of being able to afford really good equipment both tube and transistor and I defy anyone to say they can't get a "Rock" sound on any of the "Pro level gear" from EA, Accugroove, Epifani, GK, SWR, Fender,Crown, Furman,QSC,Stewart,Ampeg, EBS,Bergantino,Bag End, Demeter,Mesa Boogie, etc...etc...

Your statement makes as much sense as saying that cars from the 70's are better than the cars we have now.
I'll definitely take my 2003 Aurora over a vintage Toranado.

However, as always your mileage may vary and there are exceptions. Such as a 1967 Corvette.

+1 to the post, +infinity to the 'vette reference.


Ray

 

[nashvillebill]

I own an old Kustom 250 with a 2x15 cab and have gigged with it a fair bit. While it sounds good, it's terribly underpowered (actually only 125 watts RMS) and IMHO isn't all that versatile. The tone stack is very simple, and it's 100% solid state. It looks cool, though, and is great for classic rock/country...as long as you don't need a lot of volume. BTW, part of it's "sound" is actually compression caused by the lack of power.

I can stick my Hartke head on any 2x15 cab and pretty much replicate the Kustom sound, only with more power if I want it.

 

[nonsqtr]

I put the blame for new amps mostly sucking square on the shoulders of smooth jazz people that were always pushing for more clean headroom and no midrange to speak of. You people ruined the bass world for those of us that want to rock. Even Ampeg doesn't make an amp that sounds as cool as any of these. I love solid state power sections and how wonderfully light they can be, but there isn't a modern amp out there that can hold a candle to any of these things. Someday the bass community will wake up and demand more.

Hey, I resemble that comment.

Just kidding of course.

I have three words for you: Walter Woods Ultra.

 

[Ian Perge]

...also an important issue to consider is that an amp from the 70's that is still in playable condition in 2004 has much more than likely been kept up, worked on, and generally was worth putting the money into doing so in the first place.

In other words, what's good from that era (or 80's, 90's, etc...) is what was the "cream of the crop" in the first place, and you can't compare it *today* to the crap of past, which has disappeared where crap often does.

 

[notanaggie]

I think you guys are missing the point..........

The "sound" isn't what is the deal to me. yes, you can get close to the "sound" of any given amp with a lot of others (but the SVT has maybe more problem "doing" Clarus, and vice-versa).

I don't say that any SS amp really "nails" the sound of some tube type. But acceptably close is certainly true of many.

To me it isn't the "sound" but the "feel". Yeah you get the same sound, but do you have to work hard, play oddly, etc?

A great amp and /or instrument gets the sound, and lets you get it without feeling "unnatural" in the way you have to play. It is working with you instead of putting obstacles in your way.

Otherwise what's the point of a good instrument or amp? Why pay so much for one? Because it works with you and enhances your playing.

I know some folks who are *really* good guitar players. They can make almost anything "sound" good. But if you watch, you notice that even they have to work pretty hard with some amps and instruments.

I would also say that the 70s stuff is what those "classic" sounds were ORIGINALLY CREATED ON.

Surprise! They do those sounds well.....you'd expect that, because the instrument and amp were part of the creative process, the sounds used were the cool ones that COULD BE GOTTEN then.